Scriptures and Doctrine :: Why do most versions leave out the most important words?

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Why do most versions leave out the most important words? - posted by Santana (), on: 2007/1/9 16:35

Mark 9:29-And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. (KJV) Most versions leave out 'fasting'.

Acts 8:37-And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Je sus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)

The Ethiopian eunuch just asked Philip what he must do to be saved and most versions leave out the entire verse. :-( The examples I gave are very important to scripture and I'm kind of confused on why they would chose to omit it. I don't understand King James Version most of the time but I'm afraid I'll be missing something if I read other versions.

Re: Why do most versions leave out the most important words?, on: 2007/1/9 18:40

Thank you for posting this.

About a year ago my cousin told me to stop reading NIV, and, although at the time I didn't understand exactly why, I stop ped. I picked up the NKJV because it was the text used for a Bible quiz team that some people tried starting at church, a nd even that wasn't enough for me. NKJV just doesn't have the depth that KJV does. KJV is somehow heavier and it stic ks in my mind better. In the first few months of my KJV reading I spent some time looking into what exactly is wrong with NIV, and was disgusted. There are verses in KJV that mention the Blood of Christ, but in NIV the same verse speaks not hing of it. I find that peculiar...

I was just discussing the difference today with a classmate, so thank you for sharing these two examples.

Re: - posted by KingJimmy (), on: 2007/1/9 19:15

The issue is ultimately one of textual criticism in regard to the actual Greek/Hebrew manuscripts used by the translators. There are differences in manuscripts mostly because of copyists errors, as for thousands of years copies of the Bible w ere made by hand. It's not so much that the modern versions leave parts of things out, but rather, the manuscripts they base their translations on are ever-so-slightly different than ones used by the KJV.

So, be careful of those who espouse conspiracy theories about individuals who have attempted to demonize various tra nslations. It ultimately boils down to that some scholars have thought various manuscripts are better in quality than othe rs. It's a rather complicated matter.

Re: Why do most versions leave out the most important words? - posted by tjservant (), on: 2007/1/9 19:55

I urge you to pray much about such things. I have seen and heard compelling evidence pointing in both directions on thi s issue. I am sure you will get many more educated replies than mine, but I say pray pray prayÂ… for God to lead you i n such matters.

Remember unless you are reading the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic you are reading a TRANSLATION.

Be lead by God in all matters, including this, and it will not be such a monstrous ordeal. Believe me people can really ge t Â“wildÂ” about this. It is important, but listen to God not just manÂ’s opinions.

God bless TJ

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Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/1/9 20:54

Quote:

---tjservant wrote:

Remember unless you are reading the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic you are reading a TRANSLATION. God bless

TJ

---Could you please tell this to the folks at our Bible study, our teacher there has them all but me convinced that the KJ ver sion is the only one to use, well I still go there with my NASV and will continue to do so unless they kick me out. :-)

Re: - posted by tjservant (), on: 2007/1/9 21:44

Quote:

---MrBillPro wrote: Quote:

---Could you please tell this to the folks at our Bible study, our teacher there has them all but me convinced that the KJ version is the only one to use, wel l I still go there with my NASV and will continue to do so unless they kick me out. :-)

---I understand. My last Bible study group could be considered borderline King James Onlyists. Some of them will never see any Bible other than the KJ V as worthy. I think some of them might even scream if you touched them with an inferior translation. No kidding. Of course to them theirs is not a tran slation.

In my Bible study group I noticed at times someone would say they did not understand a passage. Before anyone said anything I would read it from a NASB and they would say Â“Oh now I get itÂ”.

Sometimes I would bring up a word in the KJV. Then the Greek. Then I would show them that other words could be used. Many times the different w ord worked better.

A few times in the KJV it says master where teacher is closer to the Greek. Not a big deal really. The English often call school teachers, school maste rs. I just tried to show them that different is not always bad, or wrong. I did this very slowly and never caused any Â“bad bloodÂ”. We always left with a smile.

I like the KJV. I will always own and use one. I also use the NASB. I do not use or recommend all translations. Some are very bad. God Bless

TJ

Re: - posted by Christinyou (), on: 2007/1/10 0:23

This is where it is very important to make comparison between KJV and newer translations.

The In Christ Position and Who He is in the believer and What He has done in the believer. This is where Satan does his work. "In Christ" is in the KJV 224 times and 147 directing us in Christ and Christ in us. Check our NIV in this area. Here are just a few:

KJV

Romans-- "In Christ JUSTIFIED." Ro 3:24.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Corinthians-- "In Christ SANCTIFIED." 1Co 1:2.

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saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Galatians-- "In Christ CRUCIFIED." Ga 2:20.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians-- "In Christ ASCENDED." Eph 1:3.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians-- "In Christ SATISFIED." Php 1:11.

Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Colossians-- "In Christ COMPLETE." Col 2:10.

Colossians 2:10 And you are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and power: Thessalonians-- "In Christ GLORIFIED." 2Th 1:10-12.

2 Timothy 1:10-12 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: For which I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Colossians; Fulfillment of God Word: Colossians 1:25-27 Of which I am made a minister, according to the commission of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

NIV

24] and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Rom 3:24 NIV) Corinthians-- "In Christ SANCTIFIED." 1Co 1:2.

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everyw here who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours: (1Cr 1:2 NIV)

Galatians-- "In Christ CRUCIFIED." Ga 2:20.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20 NIV)

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritu al blessing in Christ. (Eph 1:3 NIV)

filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ-to the glory and praise of God. (Phl 1:11 NIV) Colossians-- "In Christ COMPLETE." Col 2:10.

10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. (Col 2:10 NIV) Thessalonians-- "In Christ GLORIFIED." 2Th 1:10-12.

10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has br ought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a t eacher. That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convi nced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day. (2Ti 1:10-12 NIV)

Colossians 1:25-27 Fulfillment of God's Word:

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y that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to m ake known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col 1:25-27 NIV)

In Christ: Phillip

Re: - posted by Smokey (), on: 2007/1/10 0:42

King Jimmy

I am dumfounded that you would use the same eronious statement to discredit the KJV as athiest, and ultra liberals do.

Quote: "There are differences in manuscripts mostly because of copyists errors, as for thousands of years copies of th e bible were made by hand"

FACT one The bible as we know it has not been around for "thousands of years", only 2 thousand.

Fact two The scribes in charge of copying scripture, were more carefull than any modern proofreader I have ever known. And then to follow that statement up with the bold faced lie.

Quote: "It's not so much that the modern versions leave parts of things out, but rather, the manuscripts they base their tr anslations on are ever-so-slightly different than one used by the KJV."

THERE IS NOTHING EVER-SO-SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TO THE "MAJOR" ALTERATIONS UNDERTAKEN IN MOST NEWER VERSIONS.

Greg

here we go again., on: 2007/1/10 1:33

another 100post plus cyber tussle over different Bible versions. how edifying this will be.

What glory will be given to God!

isnt religion fun? You can fuss and tussle, biting and devouring a brother (or sister)over the internet, KNOW that you are right AND righteous, blow some steam off, turn off the computer and when all is said and done, what PRECISELY has b een accomplished?

hmmmm?

answer me that somebody?

What precisely has been accomplished by yet another long boring turgid thread arguing Bible versions...EXCEPT to di vide the Body just a little bit more.

Oh boy, arent the lost envious of the fruit of so great a salvation? "look how they love one another".

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Re: here we go again. - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/1/10 9:37

Quote:

---bartle wrote:

You can fuss and tussle, biting and devouring a brother (or sister)over the internet, KNOW that you are right AND righteous, blow some steam off, turn off the computer and when all is said and done, what PRECISELY has been accomplished?

---Sounds like you might know this first hand, but "everyone" here has been guilty of this once or twice so your preaching t o the choir. :-P

Bill, on: 2007/1/10 12:43

first hand...thats why its called "learning". neil

Re: Words - posted by PTywama3 (), on: 2007/1/10 13:10

Unfortunately, for the most part, words are meaningless. We seem to think that words were of great importance to the c ommon man, that most words really were held with great regard and that in the end, vocabulary was at points in history an incredibly important thing.

As far as I can tell, this has never been true of any but royalty and politicans. It is a completely false understanding, and generally misguided.

In fact, most people who focus on words at the common level have little to no clue as to what words actually mean. The refore, we use words as if referenced purely by culture. It ends up being moot.

The fact of the matter is that "He" suffices for "God" or "Christ" in an understood fashion, which when numerically consid ered is completely unfortunate. Reverence by due respect and learned understanding is misplaced by acknowledgemen t of numbers and partial understanding of someone else's work. Just think about the definition of "opposite" for a second , see what you come up with, and compare that to "antithesis." They ain't the same. Kinda like a subtle reference to "Ya weh" or "Jehova." Both end up being "God."

Numbers are a fun tool for comparison at times, but in today's America, they're teaching kids to be stupidly dependant ra ther than resourceful. Math is a descriptive tool, designed for analysis of motion, future assumptions, and designated sp ots in past tense.

But of course, a reasonable glance at the bible with the glasses of a political scientist would be unthinkable. The unders tanding of how things affected people, their history, and the building and foundations of their mindset have little relevanc e in a culture which thinks English should rule the world. Because we like our words. No matter if we don't understand what future perfect means.

Re: - posted by Santana (), on: 2007/1/10 15:11

Quote:

---another 100post plus cyber tussle over different Bible versions.

---Honestly man, I really want to know what the difference is.

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Re: here we go again., on: 2007/1/10 15:42

Quote:

---What precisely has been accomplished by yet another long boring turgid thread arguing Bible versions...EXCEPT to divide the Bo dy just a little bit more.

---First off, if you find it boring then dont participate. There are people asking real honest questions, and instead of offering some insight, you offer insults and criticism. I would prefer you try encouraging those who really want to learn.

Secondly, you ask what has ever been accomplished. I say much! I have learned to strongly disagree with people on thi s issue, and yet maintain a civil discussion and develop freindships... like with King Jimmy. Also, I have had some totally disagree with me on this topic, and months later they drop me a line letting me know that God used my posts to lead the m toward an understanding of the issue. Not all have come to agree with me completely, but because of these discussio n, they have learned to understand the issue.

Thirdly, I dont think it's this issue that divides... it's how people discuss it. The KJV does not divide. Pride and sin divides. God's Word unites.

Just because you see no merit in discussing this does not mean that no one else does either. It doent seem very honori ng to Christ to mock people who are asking real questions about the Word of God.

Krispy

Krispy, on: 2007/1/10 16:23

as I said, "have fun". "insults"? "criticism"?

forgive me than, if you and others find yet another thread arguing over Bible versions, edifying, please don't let me stop you.

if you really want to see how heated up two guys can get over religion, watch these two Arabs have a go at one another over Iraqi TV.

http://screens.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/10/saddam-hussein-is-your-master-and-the-master-of-your-parents/ I just watched this, and it strikes as a micro-look into why victory is NOT attainable in Iraq.

Our guys and girls in uniform are caught between these two groups of raging lunatics, raging lunatics I might add, who a re armed to the teeth, and we are caught in a foreign urban enviroment admidst a civil war OVER RELIGION.

and what I was trying to say regarding yet another potential cyber tussle over Bible versions is "here we go again"...and I don't intend on participating, but I can and will term that as not edifying....in fact I find them stumbling. If you disagree w ith that assessment, so be it.

neil

Quote:

---I am dumfounded that you would use the same eronious statement to discredit the KJV as athiest, and ultra liberals do.

Quote: "There are differences in manuscripts mostly because of copyists errors, as for thousands of years copies of the bible were made by hand"

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---My dear brother, I pray you not be dumbfounded. I am not making the argument of an atheist. Quite far from, I am as s erious as they come when it comes to a jealousy for the gospel's sake and the glory of God. Reading over part of Acts a nd the Psalms today I was ready to burst into tears over lunch at work while I just felt so moved inside or a longing for th e church to be as glorious as it once was.

The simple matter of fact is that for the New Testament there are over 5,000 different Greek manuscripts, ranging from a s early as the second century up until shortly after the invention of the modern printing press. I am less familiar with the Old Testament texts, however, to my knowledge there are about 2,000 Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts that make up the Old Testament. Of these manuscripts, there are not any two that ever agree exactly with another.

This is no atheistic argument. This is a simple matter of scholarly fact. Good, God-fearing, conservative, fundamental, e vangelical, born-again, spirit-filled scholarship believes all this.

Quote:

---FACT one The bible as we know it has not been around for "thousands of years", only 2 thousand.

---Well, this would make it "thousands" of years then. Not to mention the Old Testament, which starting with the books of t he Law is roughly another thousand years old.

Quote:

---And then to follow that statement up with the bold faced lie.

Quote: "It's not so much that the modern versions leave parts of things out, but rather, the manuscripts they base their translations on are ever-so-sligh tly different than one used by the KJV."

THERE IS NOTHING EVER-SO-SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TO THE "MAJOR" ALTERATIONS UNDERTAKEN IN MOST NEWER VERSIONS.

---Brother, if I am mistaken, please state so. I am humble and willing to learn. You don't need to be so inflamatory. And e ven if you are right, being ugly for the sake of the truth makes you just as wrong as a false prophet.

If you ever get a chance to learn Greek, grab a critical edition of the Greek NT, such as NAS27 or USB4. These are Gre ek texts used by scholars across the world, conservative and liberal. In these Greek texts, ample footnotes are provided of most every variant from most Greek manuscripts, including quotes as they appear in the early church fathers. It will t ell not only what the Greek variants are, but which manuscripts support which variants, and what the dates of those man uscripts are, and where those manuscripts were generally located.

This way, the translator is entirely FREE to choose if they want to go with the text as rendered by the NAS27/UBS4 scho lars. Or if they want to, they can disagree with the scholars who compiled this Greek manuscript, and choose another v ariant that they believe is most likely closest to the original.

For the fact of the matter is, copyist errors did enter into the copying process. That is why we have thousands of manus cripts that are not in full agreement in every place. Some of these differences are bigger in some places than others. B ut overall, the copyist errors would be a small percentage of the actual NT text (save for the so-called 'Western' text, whi ch was more of an early NT paraphrase, and has about an additional 10% more Greek words in the book of Acts). Most variants can be explained simply as misspellings, or switching word order around, or sometimes copying the wrong part of a passage (e.g. looking at the wrong sentence.) An even smaller number of variants can be explained as an atte mpt by the copyist to "soften" a "hard" saying. Very few of the variants can be explained as many conspiracy theorists w ould attempt. These things, if you have a basic working knowledge of Greek, are easier to understand.

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out as somehow to destroy the Christian faith or minimize whatever doctrine some conspiracy theorist might be proportin g. It is simply that they have based their translations on slightly different Greek manuscripts than that of the KJV. For so me of the ancient manuscripts that have been discovered and analyzed since the time of the KJV translation are deeme d by most modern scholars, conservative and liberal alike, to be far more accurate. These manuscripts do not always c ontain all the exact same wording as the text that served as the basis of the KJV in all the same places.

In essence, one could argue that from the perspective of modern scholarship, conservative and liberal, that many of thes e "disputed" sections of scriptures were actually LATER additions by various copyists. So, instead of modern translation s using a Greek text that is guilty of "taking away" what was originally there, it could be said the texts that were generally later and served the basis of the KJV, were guilty of "adding" something that was originally not there.

I would encourage the original poster to this thread to perhaps investigate this matter for yourself. I would suggest not le aning too heavily on what you find on the internet to form the basis of your conclusions though. Ultimately the only real way you will ever be able to know for yourself is to come to a basic working knowledge of NT Greek. For without it, you will never be able to analyze the original Greek manuscripts for yourself, and will always have to take somebody else's w ord for it.

I thought this book that I used in seminary was a pretty good introduction to the subject. It assumes some knowledge of Greek to be able to read all of it, but, for the most part, is understandable without:

New Testament Textual Criticism: A Concise Guide, by David Alan Black.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/1/10 17:28

Quote:

---KrispyKrittr wrote:

I have learned to strongly disagree with people on this issue, and yet maintain a civil discussion and develop friendships... like with King Jimmy. Krispy

---Brother this about says it all, and this is the way I have always thought "Christians" were supposed to be. I was really being humorous in my post Bartle, I am sorry if my post forced you to say something like this. Bartle said:

Oh boy, arent the lost envious of the fruit of so great a salvation? "look how they love one another".

have fun kids.

Kids? wow! that pretty cold but I have to admit I am a kid at heart. :-)

we all could use a "tad" more humor here, is it ok for Christians to laugh? :-P

I don't really come here enough to know if there is some un forgiveness or animosity between folks, but man as Christia ns I am guessing there

shouldn't be.

Maybe someone was just having a bad hair day trust me I have quite a few of them, but I try not to let the world know. :-P

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Re: Krispy - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/1/10 17:50

Quote:

---bartle wrote:

if you really want to see how heated up two guys can get over religion, watch these two Arabs have a go at one another over Iraqi TV. http://screens.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/10/saddam-hussein-is-your-master-and-the-master-of-your-parents/

I just watched this, and it strikes as a micro-look into why victory is NOT attainable in Iraq.

Our guys and girls in uniform are caught between these two groups of raging lunatics, raging lunatics I might add, who are armed to the teeth, and we are caught in a foreign urban enviroment admidst a civil war OVER RELIGION.

neil

---Neil, I don't like the war either, but how on earth can you not even possibly think that this war could be all in Gods plan? I have read a lot of books on the end times "not saying there the truth" but I really personally believe this war is all in God s plan for the end times.

Re:, on: 2007/1/10 18:37

Quote:

---Kids? wow! that pretty cold but I have to admit I am a kid at heart.

---Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. :-P

Re: - posted by Smokey (), on: 2007/1/10 19:12

KJ

Quote:

It's not so much that the modern versions leave parts of things out, but rather, the manuscripts they base their translatio ns on are ever-so-slightly different than ones used by the KJV.

Sir, it is you that has chosen to include all "modern versions" in your defense of the newer translations. Again I state tha t I am dumbfounded that you would consider offerings such as The MessageÂ® The Living BibleÂ® & the TNIVÂ® ( jus t to mention a few) as being only "ever so slightly" different.

You know as well as myself, and most people who venture here, that you can trot out numerous scholars that will supp ort your view, and I can trot out just as many scholars that oppose your view, and when all is said and done, nothing will have been accomplished.

The fact is that the KJV and the "modern versions" are translated from two entirely different streams of manuscripts, bo th of which were known about by the translators of the KJV, and the scholars of that day rejected the Alexandrian manus cripts as being unreliable.

If, as you believe, the texts for the "modern versions" are so superior, why do the translators continue to pump out vast n umbers of diffrent bibles,each one more and more corrupt (in my opinion), supposedly from the same text??

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Quote:

---Sir, it is you that has chosen to include all "modern versions" in your defense of the newer translations.

---I believe you have misunderstood my position. For ---I would by no means defend all of the newer translations. ---I'm just si mply saying that the newer translations base their translations on a different Greek text than from what the KJV did. Tha t doesn't always mean these translations of that Greek text are very good. Translations can only be as good as the tran slators are. Good translators try to be as accurate as possible to translating the Greek text set before them, translating t he text in the most literal and straightforward manner, yet at the same time making it something one can actually read in the English language.

Quote:

---Again I state that I am dumbfounded that you would consider offerings such as The MessageÂ® The Living BibleÂ® & the TNIVÂ® ( just to mention a few) as being only "ever so slightly" different.

---Where did I ever mention any of these? Let's not argue with ghosts. I only mentioned the NASB, NIV, NKJV, and NRS V. I never once defended these other translations you mention, because, so far as I understand they never try to conve y themselves as serious translations, but rather, as simple paraphrases (although I think the TNIV tries to be such, but I' ve never really looked at it save a glance).

So far as I have found in my own basic translations and studies, I believe of the modern translations, the NASB is by far the best out there. It tries as much as possible to be word-for-word to what is in the Greek, and at the same time trying t o maintain Greek tenses in English. It tries to be as literal as possible. So much so, that the NASB is criticized as being a little less readable than other versions that try to have a little more "dynamic equivalent" such as the NIV. At the same time the NASB doesn't exclude the verses that are in dispute as to if they are part of the original autographs. If a verse i s in question, it translates it and simply puts in in brackets, or, if they really have doubts, they will put it in a footnote to le t the reader know. But, either way, it still gets put in there.

On a side note: The Message is more like your pastor reading a passage of Scripture on Sunday morning and then par aphrasing what he just read so as to try and help you understand it. My only real problem with The Message is that it tri es too hard, and is too artsy fartsy to be of any real help. I don't mind a good paraphrase translation from time-to-time t hat helps give a better "general sense" of a passage in which one is struggling to understand, much like a pastor or com mentator would (for which I think the NLT is a nice solid not-to-over-the-top paraphrase). But these things should be rec ognized only for what they are, paraphrases. They shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Quote:

---You know as well as myself, and most people who venture here, that you can trot out numerous scholars that will support your view, and I can trot out j ust as many scholars that oppose your view, and when all is said and done, nothing will have been accomplished.

---Indeed. Which is why I don't get into trying to win disputes over who's got the best set of scholars in one's deck of cards . I've only simply reported what the consensus of scholars (both conservative and liberal) are today. But even amongst those boys there are disputes as to the particulars (as with anything in this world). I'm much more in favor of people goi ng out there and studying things for themselves. Which is why I encourage anybody who is going to actually take the ti me to learn some things about textual criticism to actually learn Greek for themselves. That way they can actually deal with the primary sources themselves, instead of getting all their information from second hand sources. Otherwise, they will always be one step away from being able to do some real homework themselves.

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That is why, for example, I respect Ron Bailey's opinion on why he thinks the underlying Greek text of the KJV is general ly better than that of the NASB. For he has actually done homework for himself, and looked at original documents in ori ginal languages, and weighed the various conclusions of scholars. I don't take his stance, but, I'd dare say he knows 20 times more about the subject than I do, and I bet he could articulate his stance much more accurately than I could mine.

But at the same time, I have little respect for all the yahoo's out on the internet who sit there and blast translations and G reek texts all day, but who don't even know what a nomnitive noun is in Greek. Oh, they can quote a lot of scholars som e of them. But, they've never actually wrestled with the subject matter for themselves, nor the primary documents. They are like me trying to tell my mother how to bake a cake- something I know nothing about.

Quote:

---The fact is that the KJV and the "modern versions" are translated from two entirely different streams of manuscripts, both of which were known about b y the translators of the KJV, and the scholars of that day rejected the Alexandrian manuscripts as being unreliable.

---Sadly, it's not quite that simple. It is true that the translators of the KJV tended to favor one line of manuscripts over that of another. Just as it is today that translators of versions like the NASB tend to favor another line of manuscripts more. However, that tendency doesn't means always. The NAS27/UBS4 which serve as the basis of modern translations whil e favoring one line of manuscripts doesn't always side with it. There is simply a general tendency to do such. And even as it is, sometimes modern translations choose to go with a variant that didn't make it into the established text of the NA S27/UBS4. Sometimes they favor the other stream of manuscripts.

Quote:

---If, as you believe, the texts for the "modern versions" are so superior, why do the translators continue to pump out vast numbers of diffrent bibles,each one more and more corrupt (in my opinion), supposedly from the same text??

---Ultimately, some translators feel they can do a better job than others. Some, like the folks who did the NASB, felt that a very rigid and literal translation is needed for the serious Bible student. But others like the NIV, while wanting to be litera l, didn't want to be so rigid, and wanted something a little more readable. So, they sacrificed some of the literal word-for-word translation for something a little more readable for the average person. Ultimately, different strokes for different fol ks. Some of the reasons behind some of the translations/paraphrases have been a little less noble, such as seeking to be a little more "politically correct" or "user friendly."

But then there are folks like me, who having some knowledge of Greek, translate passages in the Bible at times for mere ly academic reasons (e.g. part of a seminary assignment) and/or for personal study/edification. Am I being evil for doing so? Hardly. But what if one day I get so strong at Greek that in my own personal studies I crank out a full translation of the New Testament in Greek? And what if sometime after my death, somebody decides that I actually did a pretty good job at it. So much so that they decided to publish it and call it: "The King Jimmy Version?" O, I can see it now, all the an gry yahoolagians out on the internet denouncing my translation as being of the Devil!

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Re: Amy, I wish it were..., on: 2007/1/11 0:32

you quoted this Scripture, one of my favorite verses:

Quote:

---Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

---love that verse!! the implication being to have the unswerving trust and faith of a child.

When I wrote "have fun kids", my usage of the word "kids" was to imply immaturity for this yet another thread/cyber tussl e over versions of the Bible, such as rears its ugly head every month or so, goes on for a 100 plus posts, and frankly do es not edify, strengthen or unify the Body of believers.

there was some brother further down in the thread that was just FLAMING King Jimmy, and for what? to be "right"?

which is why I linked up that bit of video of those two arabs screaming at and threatening each other over whether sadda m hussein is now a "martyr" or "imam". Thank God it was a TV news set these two were on, coz if they would have had guns, they would have been blasting each other...over religion.

so...arguing over whether this or that version of Scripture is bad, or apostate, or whatever negative value that a perso n puts on a KJV Bible, or an NIV Bible is just religious junk and palaber.

Hear me, the sooner the Church weans itself off of religion and starts to drink from the Living Water that Messiah brings, will be the day we start to see real revival in this land.

Everthing else is white noise, palaber and the dreck of the world.

Drink from the Living Waters and quit devouring your brother. (not you Amy.... :-) that was meant in general)...a general t hrowing it our there", admonition.

Mr Bill, on: 2007/1/11 1:01

Beloved brother,

"how on earth"...you asked me.

God is not behind this war in Iraq, and who can divine the Mind of God to say its "His" plan.

God had nothing to do with this war in Iraq, the "god of this age" had everything to do with it. Thats why I linked up that v ideo of those two arabs screaming at one another...in that segment is contained the hellish and devilish behavior of what happens when men get involved in religion.

They will kill over religion, and that is not only muslims.

God, Yahweh, Adonai, Elochim has nothing to do with religion.

the "god of this age" runs religion, runs wars, fuels the pride of man, and the deceit of his eyes and his lusts, whether it b e power or money.

God's plan is this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, your strength and your soul, and love your neig hbor as yourself.

Would to God some of these start loving God MORE than they hate their enemies....or as I heard a secular commmentat or from the Persian Gulf region put it, "I wish they would love their children, more than they hate their enemies".

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This war in Iraq is unwinnable, you know how I know how?

In WW2, it was Admiral Jodl that signed the surrender documents for the Germans, I forget his name, but it was a Japan ese diplomat in a tophat who signed the surrender documents aboard the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay.

Now when we "beat" "them", whoever they are, who is going to sign the surrender documents? If you don't have surrender conditions, how can you have victory? How can we win then? I know what I would reccomend, but I'm not a policy maker, just a struggling saint, as you are.

Re: Why do most versions leave out the most important words? - posted by Yeshuasboy (), on: 2007/1/11 1:40

Quote:

---Santana wrote:

I don't understand King James Version most of the time but I'm afraid I'll be missing something if I read other versions.

---Dear brother,

I believe this is good, and will humbley ask you to continue getting acquainted with the KJV. Read it daily brother and yo u will become familiar with its syntax in no time. You will not be wasting your time in error by reading this translation. If a nything you will put more time into studying this translation until you become familiar with it and this can only bless you my brother. :-D

richie

Re:, on: 2007/1/11 1:41

Quote:

---When I wrote "have fun kids", my usage of the word "kids" was to imply immaturity for this yet another thread/cyber tussle over versi ons of the Bible, such as rears its ugly head every month or so, goes on for a 100 plus posts, and frankly does not edify, strengthen or unify the Body o f believers.

---This I understand and I do agree with you that these arguments that seem increasingly common (not only on these boar ds but in the Body of Christ in its entirety in these last days) are useless. I've stated my opinion in other threads, as well, but often they just get tossed aside as "foolish opinions." But that's alright. I'll just shake the dust off my feet and move o n. Still there is no reason to flame each other over anything (unless you're flaming satan, which to that I said go right ahe ad!), and every single time these little mini-wars rise up they could easily be replaced with gentleness. After all, that is on e of the fruits of the Spirit.

Re:, on: 2007/1/11 8:38

Bartle... brother, for someone who isnt going to participate in this thread, you have posted more than anyone else who is participating! LOL

You cant help yourself, you love this topic, don't-cha! :-D

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Re: Mr Bill - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/1/11 9:22

Quote:

---bartle wrote: Beloved brother,

"how on earth"...you asked me.

God is not behind this war in Iraq, and who can divine the Mind of God to say its "His" plan.

---Well just a thought I cannot prove this war is or is not in God's plan but can you prove it's not?

My Pastor always says if someone can prove something let it be and move on, but if they can't there thoughts or opinion s or no better than yours, and they are nothing but opinions.

You said in your post "God is not behind this war in Iraq" were is the proof? ;-)

Re:, on: 2007/1/11 13:38

Not to sound Calvinistic, but to say this war is not God's plan is to say God is not in control right now. I dont believe thats true at all. Just because in someone's perspective it isnt a just war doesnt mean it isnt God's plan. I think Nazi Germany was the ultimate in evil, yet I think it was God's plan in order to set up the reunification of Israel and begin the count dow n to the end of time. I dont think it was an accident. Over and over again in the OT God used Israel's enemies to motivat e Israel.

But we're veering off topic... if we're gonna discuss Iraq and God's plan, lets start a new thread. Krispy

Re: - posted by jimbob, on: 2007/1/12 3:56

Quote:

---tjservant wrote:

Remember unless you are reading the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic you are reading a TRANSLATION.

God bless TJ

---Hate to spoil your day but the original documents don't exist. No one on this earth can prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt any particular word was in the original text because no one has the first copy, and thats a fact. All of this debate about which Bible version is best is all speculation, because even if there are 5,000 various fragments of scripture or 5,0 00,000 fragments out there the 2nd time it was copied it could have been altered. So what we have are people arguing o pinions and beliefs without the proof to back them up.

One question, if the scriptures are so important that every little jot has to be argued over and scrutinized, why didn't the Almighty God save the originals so there would be no question as to which source is correct?

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Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2007/1/12 4:30

hi, i would suggest that you obey the words that are in whatever version you have. jimp

Re:, on: 2007/1/12 7:29

Quote:

---Hate to spoil your day but the original documents don't exist. No one on this earth can prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt any particular word was in the original text because no one has the first copy, and thats a fact. All of this debate about which Bible version is best is all spe culation, because even if there are 5,000 various fragments of scripture or 5,000,000 fragments out there the 2nd time it was copied it could have been altered. So what we have are people arguing opinions and beliefs without the proof to back them up.

---So basically you're saying we (more precisely... you) have no ultimate authority. No way of knowing if Christianity is eve n true.

How unfortunate. Krispy

Who is the Word? Is Christ able to keep His Word? When any bible takes away from this, it is Christ who will protect His Word. Which ever bible is used is Only as Good as What the Holy Spirit teaches from it. The Holy Spirit is the Tea cher of the Word of Christ, not the KJV, NIV, NASB,etc. or any fragments or different manuscripts. Only the devil wants us to fight over different versions of the bible, it keeps us from the True Word of God Himself, that is Jesus Christ taught to all by the Holy Spirit to those that will seek Truth by Them and the Father.

Even a babe won't eat something that is un tasteful. May we trust in Him and not the version by which we believe. If th e version takes away from Christ, we will know. 2 John 1:7-9 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who conf ess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not t hose things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In Christ and Christ in you, all else is other doctrine. In Christ: Phillip

Re:, on: 2007/1/13 0:50

See, the thing is that if you're looking to the words in the Bible to help you, you probably won't find it. It's not the words th emselves that give life; 2 Corinthians 3:6 says The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life (emphasis added). John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Don't these two verses show that it's more the Spirit of God behind the words that makes the difference?

Let me put it this way: if your version of the Bible doesn't feel timeless (I use this word intentionally and specifically), it m ay be time to try a different version.

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Also; John 5:37-40 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape. And ye have not His word abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me. And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.

By the Holy Spirit of God and the Christ born again in us, let us come to Him. Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This mission Jesus Christ gave to Paul was not written on tablets until Paul wrote them. If Jesus Can reveal this mystery of Christ in us to Paul, Jesus Can by the Holy Spirit our Teacher reveal the mystery to us. Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Praise God for the Word of God, He is our new nature in our new creation, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." 2Ti 3:16 All scripture given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righ teousness:

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the

Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. T he grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the

word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Phillip

Re: Mr Bill - posted by Smokey (), on: 2007/1/13 3:42

The thoughts of an old guy just trying to muddle through all the smoke & mirrors our enemy keeps putting in my way. Once again we find ourselves on SI in the middle of a post on bible translations.

Once again people are asking "What's the big deal, lets just agree to disagree, and read the version that you are most c omfortable with, after all, it is all the word of God."

Once again followers of every known translation are clamoring to justify their choice of bible.

Once again, the real question that needs to be addressed, is being pushed aside as people try to "make points for their s ide."

That question is, Is God able to preserve His Words, and if so , Where Are They? Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. God has said that His words will not pass away. So where are they?

If the issue is 2 streams of manuscripts, why not one translation from each set of texts, and be done with it, instead of a steady stream of translations coming from the Alexandrian texts, all differing "greatly" from one another?

If the modern translations are so superior to the old standard KJV, why are congregations in such turmoil, to the point th at, most people here have asked "What is happening in my church?" With so many translations being used by pastors a nd congregations, confusion must result.

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Bible studies are continually being interrupted by statements like, "That's not what my bible says," or, "What does your b ible say?"

2Co 2:17(a) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:

Scripture says that many will corrupt the word of God. Might that come about by many impostors today masquerading a s God's Words?

Draw close to God, and let Him guide you in this matter. Blessings Greg

Re:, on: 2007/1/17 0:24

To: Christinyou From: Stever

I have great difficulty in understanding your position. Specifically if doctrine is deleted from the newer versions why should we knowlingly allow it to continue without warning others?

Christ has told us that His Word would be with us forever. (Mat 24: 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.) If that is so then the Holy Spirit that is in each of our hearts should cry out to us with the truth of what is taking place the next time we pick up one of the "newer versions".

This is a small example of the travesty that is taking place by the "translators" of the "newer versions": Scripture Comparison

Let's consider some important doctrinal truths that are attacked by the NIV. You should note that most of these

omissions are found in the other new versions also, if you want to compare. The NIV even refutes the idea that the Bible is the preserved, inspired, Word of God.

Psalms 12:6-7 (KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.

Psalms 12:6-7 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. 7 O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever.

Can you see how the meaning is completely corrupted by this supposed improved "Bible". Dear friend, God has a warning to anyone who would dare change His Word.

Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NIV) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. You will note, they change book of life to tree of life (what part would we even have in the tree of life?), then they confuse the last part of the verse, by dropping "and" and running the verse together, it is weakened. The warning is weakened. This is what the NIV is all about. It corrupts, omits, weakens and changes God's inspired word.

1. By changing "God" to "He" they remove the fact that Jesus is God. This is done in the NASV also.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 2. By changing "Christ" to "God" they deny that Jesus is God.

Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:12 (KJV) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 14:10 (NIV) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Romans 14:12 (NIV) So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 3. They change "Son of God" to "Son of Man", who gave them the right to call Jesus a liar?

John 9:35 (KJV) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

John 9:35 (NIV) Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

4. In Matthew 9:18, Matthew 20:20, and Mark 5:6 "Worshipped" and "Worshipping" is changed to "knelt down". This removes the due respect of our Saviour.

5. Jesus is eternal, He did not have an origin.

Micah 5:2 (KJV) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2 (NIV) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

6. Again, Jesus is eternal, He is the beginning and ending.

Revelation 1:8 (KJV) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:8 (NIV) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

7. The NIV omits the first part of the verse, and leaves out the name Jesus, who is called the Son of God by these "translators".

Matthew 8:29 (KJV) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Matthew 8:29 (NIV) "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

8. NIV leaves out Jesus.

Matthew 16:20 (KJV) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Matthew 16:20 (NIV) Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

9. They omit Christ and add man - this is wrong!

John 4:42 (KJV) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 4:42 (NIV) They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

10. Where did this name for God come from "One" - this is the New Age universal god - "the One". John 6:69 (KJV) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 (NIV) We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

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1 Corinthians 16:22 (KJV) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. 1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV) If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord ! 12. NIV omits by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:9 (NIV) and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

13. When did God cease to be wise?

1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 (NIV) Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

14. Omits by himself.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3 (NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 15. The NIV attacks the priestly order of Jesus!

Hebrews 7:21 (KJV) (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) Hebrews 7:21 (NIV) but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.'"

16. The NIV changes Lucifer's name to "morning star."

This shows how insidious the NIV corruption is. Remember that this is one of the blessed titles given to our Lord Jesus in (Revelation 22:16). Here they provide confusion between who Satan is and who Jesus is. One thing is for sure, Satan is not the bright and morning star, but the wicked evil deceptive one, who was called before his fall, "Lucifer".

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:15 (KJV) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Isaiah 14:15 (NIV) But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

Note: At least 70 times, the NIV omits GOD! * Jesus - 15; Christ - 25; Lord - 16; God - 13. *Somebody must not like Jesus, Christ, Lord, and God.

B. The Virgin Birth.

1. The NIV removes "firstborn" - questions the virgin birth!

Matthew 1:25 (KJV) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Matthew 1:25 (NIV) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. 2. The NIV changes "Joseph" to "the child's father" - questioning the virgin birth!

Luke 2:33 (KJV) And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. Luke 2:33 (NIV) The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him.

3. The NIV changes "Joseph and his mother" to "his parents" which attacks the virgin birth.

Luke 2:43 (KJV) And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Luke 2:43 (NIV) After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it.

4. The NIV changes "only begotten of the Father" to "One and Only" which is a New Age title for some cosmic god. John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only

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begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 (NIV) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

5. Notice the NIV omits "Christ" and "is come in the flesh". This is important to us who are saved.

1 John 4:3 (KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:3 (NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

C. The Atoning Death of Christ.

1. The NIV Omits over half of the verse.

Matthew 27:35 (KJV) And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Matthew 27:35 (NIV) When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 2. The NIV removes the verse (even the Catholic Bible has this verse).

Mark 15:28 (KJV) And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. Mark 15:28 (NIV)

3. They omit "they struck him on the face", this weakens the fulfillment of Isaiah 50:6 "I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting".

Luke 22:64 (KJV) And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

Luke 22:64 (NIV) They blindfolded him and demanded, "Prophesy! Who hit you?" 4. The NIV omits the BLOOD and question the Deity of Christ in these verses.

Colossians 1:14-15 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:14-15 (NIV) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

D. The Resurrection of Christ.

1. This Omission attacks both the Virgin Birth and Resurrection of our Lord. Without the resurrection, we have not hope of eternal life.

Acts 2:30 (KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Acts 2:30 (NIV) But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

2. The NIV omits "of the dead".

This brings in question the power of God in resurrection. Many cultists teach that Jesus was not raised in a physical body. The "New Bibles" give these false doctrines aid and comfort.

Acts 24:15 (KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:15 (NIV) and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The NIV omits "him that liveth for ever and ever". Jesus said "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:18

Revelation 5:14 (KJV) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 5:14 (NIV) The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. Satan hates the resurrection of Christ, and will do anything he can to fight it.

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seen as not having a BODY, He is seen without a resurrection.

Ephesians 5:30 (KJV) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Ephesians 5:30 (NIV) for we are members of his body.

E. The Ascension of Christ.

1. They leave out "I go to the Father" this attacks the all important doctrine of the ascension of Christ. If Jesus did not resurrect and if He did not ascend back to the Father, then we have no hope of salvation and we have no hope of the second coming.

John 16:16 (KJV) A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 16:16 (NIV) "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." 2. They leave out "is the Lord", Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:47 (KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47 (NIV) The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. F. The Doctrine of the Trinity.

The Devil hates all three of the Godhead. Many references to names of God are attacked.

1. Who gave the translators the authority to change God's name? Jeremiah spoke about so called "Prophets", "which think to cause my people to forget my name" (Jeremiah 23:27).

Exodus 6:3 (KJV) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exodus 6:3 (NIV) I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.

Genesis 22:14 (KJV) And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Genesis 22:14 (NIV) So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

2. It is apparent that the NIV does not like to use the blessed name Jehovah, why? Is this to accommodate the New Age crowd?

For anyone to alter the name of our God is ungodly and out of Hell. (Of course they don't like HELL either, study on). Exodus 17:15 (KJV) And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:

Exodus 17:15 (NIV) Moses built an altar and called it The LORD is my Banner.

3. In the NIV study bible I am using, I cannot find one time they use the name Jehovah, why? What is wrong with the blessed name of God? It is the Hebrew.

Isaiah 12:2 (KJV) Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 12:2 (NIV) Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."

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I could continue with this proof text for the next 100 posts, and yet the Holy Ghost, who lives inside of you HAS NOT REVEALED THIS TO YOU.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Without this word, men will perish. Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed. God bless,

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Stever :-D

Quote:

---Christinyou wrote:

Also; John 5:37-40 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen Hi s shape. And ye have not His word abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eter nal life: and they are they which testify of Me. And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.

By the Holy Spirit of God and the Christ born again in us, let us come to Him. Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dis pensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but no w is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ i n you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Chri st Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This mission Jesus Christ gave to Paul was not written on tablets until Paul wrote them. If Jesus Can reveal this mystery of Christ in us to Paul, Jesus Can by the Holy Spirit our Teacher reveal the mystery to us. Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these thing s shall be added unto you.

Praise God for the Word of God, He is our new nature in our new creation, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." 2Ti 3:16 All scripture given by ins piration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the

Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the fl ower thereof falleth away: But the

word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Phillip

---Re: - posted by tjservant (), on: 2007/1/17 0:41

Quote:

---Stever wrote:

I could continue with this proof

Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

---You have only proved that the KJV translation is not the NIV translation. Not that the KJV is the only word of God. Why use the KJV translation to compare everything to?

Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation. peace be with you

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Re:, on: 2007/1/17 1:00 Quote: ---tjservant wrote: Quote: ---Stever wrote:

I could continue with this proof

Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

---You have only proved that the KJV translation is not the NIV translation. Not that the KJV is the only word of God. Why use the KJV translation to compare everything to?

Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation. peace be with you

TJ

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The King James is from the "Received Text, the Textus Receptus, that was passed down from the Disciples.

What is superb about it is that the English language is "frozen in time" with the use of the King James. Between 1611 an d 1828 the English language was quite static. Travel took a very long time, and only the rich could afford to do so. The N oah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the American language is an excellent tool to use with the King James Bible.

As far as ALL the newer versions---they ALL rely on the corrupt Alexandrian text that Westcott & Hort created to produce their "revised" Translation produced in 1881. Actually, the Catholic bible is quite similar to the Westcott and Hort Translat ion.

God bless, Stever :-D

Hi Steve, how ya do-en.

I will not use any other new age versions of the bible unless I check them by the KJV. Most do not hold up to the KJV. This is a previous post, on this thread.

""This is where it is very important to make comparison between KJV and newer translations.

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work. "In Christ" is in the KJV 224 times and 147 directing us in Christ and Christ in us. Check our NIV in this area. Here are just a few:

KJV

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Corinthians-- "In Christ SANCTIFIED." 1Co 1:2.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. Colossians-- "In Christ COMPLETE." Col 2:10.

Colossians 2:10 And you are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and power: Thessalonians-- "In Christ GLORIFIED." 2Th 1:10-12.

2 Timothy 1:10-12 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: For which I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Colossians; Fulfillment of God Word: Colossians 1:25-27 Of which I am made a minister, according to the commission of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

NIV

24] and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Rom 3:24 NIV) Corinthians-- "In Christ SANCTIFIED." 1Co 1:2.

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everyw here who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours: (1Cr 1:2 NIV)

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20 NIV)

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritu al blessing in Christ. (Eph 1:3 NIV)