you were to ask me some of the things

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(3) Morris:. Yes, sorry,. Interrupted you.. I. W. Zellerbach: Because the same thing. that. happened. to Rayonier. happened. with. Fibreboard. Morris:. The headquarters moved?. W. Zellerbach: Relations between Crown Zellerbach and the Fiberboard management got pretty bad. Then Crown Zellerbach sold all of their interest in Fibreboard, and when they sold their interest, they went and bought Gaylord, which. was a. St.. Morris:. Much. bigger, wasn't. W. Zellerbach:. Well, geographically that time on.. At Morris:. Louis company.. 1 1. it,. it. by then than Fiberboard?. was. located. in. the Midwest.. :30 I'm going to have to cut out. Okay. Well, maybe. I. could. in. It. was. downhill from. a few minutes.. come back another. time?. W. Zellerbach: You are always welcome! Morris:. Well, thank you.. You're a fount of information.. Creating an Employee Severance Package. W. Zellerbach:. I'm glad to tell you what remember. But if you were to ask me some of the things I'd like to really impart, it's this family feeling of the corporation and how well the corporation treated their employees. It was just last I. December. 991 ] that three or four secretaries put together a reunionassistant attorneys and people like that-by word of mouth. They said, "We are going to have a party at a local bar in San Francisco." went down there, and there had to be over 300-350 people.. secretaries. [1. and I. They. called. and asked. if. I. would come.. It. was. very. nostalgic.. Morris:. It. even got written up. in. the paper.. [end tape 1 side b] [begin tape 2, side a] ,. W. Zellerbach: Some Morris:. of. what. I. remember, as. I. You. said,. is. very biased.. Is. that fair?. are entitled to your opinion and your recollections. That's what important about this conversation. So tell it the way you see it.. 15. is.

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(7) RECOLLECTIONS: INTERVIEWS WITH WILLIAM. J.. ZELLERBACH AND STEPHEN. A.. Interviewed by Gabrielle Morris. Regional Oral History Office The Bancroft Library University of California, Berkeley. 1992. ZELLERBACH.

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(9) All. uses of. this. manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between the Regents of the. University of California. manuscript. is. thereby. and William. made. J.. Zellerbach and Stephen A. Zellerbach.. available for research purposes.. The. All literary rights in. the. manuscript, including the right to publish are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of. The Bancroft. Library of the University of. California, Berkeley.. 1992 by the Regents of the University of. California.. All rights. reserved..

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(11) ACKNOWLEDGEMENT These interviews were made possible by funding provided by William J. Zellerbach and Stephen A. Zellerbach, who also supported the arrangement, description, and preservation of the Crown Zellerbach Corporation Records in The Bancroft Library..

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(13) TABLE OF CONTENTS. WILLIAM. J.. ZELLERBACH RECOLLECTIONS. [Date of Interview: August 17, 1992]. Jake Zellerbach; Family Interests Mother Lode Origins. in. Los Angeles;. page. 1. Grandfather Isadore Zellerbach. 3. Company's Family Philosophy. 4. Zellerbach Corporation and the Great Depression Western Paper Industry in the 1940s; the Rayonier Venture. Banking Connections Fibreboard Joint Venture with the Paraffine. Company. Becoming President of the Zellerbach Paper Company, 1961 Paper Mills and Labor Relations Professional Management Problems Creating an Employee Severance Package, 1985 Buying and Selling Companies in the 1940s and 1980s Mentors and Friends; Family Concerns. 5 7 8 10. Joining the Firm;. 11. 12 14 15 17 19. [Date of Interview: August 31, 1992]. Consumer Paper Specialties; Commercial Suppliers First West Coast Coated-Paper Equipment Environmental Good Citizenship Employee Events Institutional Advertising Civil. 21. 23 25 26 27. Rights Policies; Acquisition of Gaylord Container Corporation, 1955. Capital Expansion: Energy Production, Plant Modernization Restructuring; Takeover in the 1980s. Crown Zellerbach. STEPHEN. A.. History Committee;. Customer Relations. 28 34 34 37. ZELLERBACH RECOLLECTIONS. [Date of Interview:. September. 10, 1992]. Family Origins. 41. From. 44 47 50 52 53. the Mother Lode to San Francisco, 1848-1868 Isadore Zellerbach Builds the Business, 1868-1941 Product Innovations: Interfolded Towels and Cellophane Diversification. Relatives and Friends.

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(15) Business Contacts; the 1927 Crown Zellerbach Merger Employee Activities; A Refugee Chemist William and Stephen in the Zellerbach Paper Company J.D. and Harold Zellerbach's Role in Company and. 54 56 58 61. Public Affairs. Food, Wine and Boating History Committee; Headquarters Buildings. 65 66 67 69. Shifts in Corporation Direction. Labor Relations Visiting Grandparents;. 71. Logging Camps; Winemaking. TAPE GUIDE. William Zellerbach, August 17, 1992. Tape Tape Tape. 1, 1,. 2,. Side A Side B Side A. page. 1. 8 15. William Zellerbach, August 31, 1992. Tape Tape Tape. 2, 3, 3,. Side B Side A Side B. Stephen Zellerbach, September. Tape Tape Tape Tape. 4,. 4, 5, 5,. Side A Side B Side A Side B. 21. 29 36 10,. 1992 41. 50 60 68.

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(17) Interview with William. J.. Zellerbach. Interviewer:. Gabrielle Morris. Transcriber:. Kian Sandjideh. [Interview. 1. [begin tape. August. :. 1. ,. 1. 7,. 1. 992]. side a]. Jake Zellerbach: Family Morris:. Interests in. Los Angeles: Mother Lode Origins. ask you to share some of the family stories about what it was part of Zellerbach Paper Company and some of the changes over the years that are reflected in the papers that have been deposited in. We'd like. like to. be a. to. The Bancroft. Library.. W. Zellerbach:. If. Morris:. Your thinking glasses?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, someone on his glasses.. that's the case,. I'll. put. my. other glasses on.. [laughter]. once told me when he really has to concentrate, he puts have good eyes, but my distance vision has gotten weaker and weaker, so when put my reading glasses on my nose you're I. I. not Morris:. good. in. focus.. understand. Okay, well put on your long-ago glasses back into the past. I. now and. look. let's. photocopied a couple of things came across that thought might stir your memory. This drawing is noted as a picture of your great grandfather Anthony Zellerbach delivering paper in San Francisco about 1 868. It looks as if it might have been an early advertising piece? I. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. I. think. Am. I. I. we have. right that. I. the original photograph right out here. in. my. he had an older brother, Henry, who started. office.. in. the paper. business before him?. W. Zellerbach:. I'm. going to help you on. that.. grandfather [Isadore Zellerbach] had a lot of brothers, and believe that it was only Jake, who died when was an infant, that really had anything on the ball. Henry was a nice guy, but he was in charge of. My. I. I. the twine business, cordage and twine, and he never really rose much can remember him, but he wasn't a vibrant man. He further than that. was very happy to sit in 534 Battery [Street] and visit with the salesmen. I. Morris:. I. understood that he had been. W. Zellerbach: No, what happened. in. in. business. Los Angeles was 1. down. my. in. Los Angeles.. grandfather's wife's family.

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(19) Morris:. That's the Baruhs?. W. Zellerbach: Baruh.. J.Y.. Baruh went down to Los Angeles to start, as recall, the first down in Los Angeles. He was on all of the boards of I. Zellerbach division. Company and later Crown Zellerbach and amassed a tremendous amount of wealth. Let me go from after the war, when really knew what was going on, or more of what was going on. He had an office, but he never really was active in doing lots of things directors of the Zellerbach Paper. I. hands-on. Morris:. He was. W. Zellerbach: Sort. the outside. He was. yes.. of,. man? the outside. man. for. Los Angeles. He represented. all. company's interests, in the latter part of his years, in Los Angeles. He went down at such an early age that Los Angeles was like his native city. They had no children, which was a shame. His wife's name was Alma, and can remember their home, a beautiful home, lovely people. of the. I. He was Morris:. Mr. Los Angeles for the Zellerbach interests.. Both sales and financial? Whatever needed doing?. W. Zellerbach: You know, the chamber of commerce, United Crusade, or whatever they had. I'm sure he must have made a lot of real estate investments. Morris:. So he would have been. W. Zellerbach: He was was,. in. Los Angeles. in. the '30s?. the '30s, 40's, and. until he died. Until he passed away which he still used to come up on the DC-3 and go to the board of directors meetings.. I'm sure, in his eighties,. [airplane]. Morris:. in. Had he been. in. business with your grandfather before he married into the. family?. W. Zellerbach:. was born in Moore's Flat and my born in Nevada City. (My brother was grandmother [Theresa Mohr] is much better on this subject than myself.) Moore's [Stephen Zellerbach] is only a postal Flat is twenty miles east of Nevada City. Today, think I. doubt. it.. I. don't know.. My. grandfather. I. stop or a. it. fire station.. Morris:. must have been pretty brave of them to come down from those mining towns to start a business in San Francisco.. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. It. I. think they. had. They came out this,. but. my. to.. to. recollection. Confederates. in. the. Civil. I. think they ran out of luck.. be miners. Again, my brother would be is. that. War.. my. better. on. great-grandfather~Anthony--bet on the.

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(21) Morris:. A. southerner?. W. Zellerbach: No, they emigrated from Germany and went to Pennsylvania, but-this is all family lore-l can remember my father saying maybe in jest, that they went broke because they had nothing but Confederate dollars. Then they it,. came down Morris:. Were they. here.. actually selling supplies to the Confederates?. guess they just bet on it. don't think they were supplying the Confederates or had anything in common with them. But my brother Stephen think would know.. W. Zellerbach: No.. I. I. I. Grandfather Isadore Zellerbach Morris:. told me, when we talked before, about your grandfather taking you up Sacramento when there was a fire in the warehouse. Did he take you on other expeditions when he was going out on company business?. You to. W. Zellerbach: He would take us everywhere. He had a yacht, too. We would go up the Sacramento River on his yacht. I'm a little vague whether it was Stockton think Stockton had the deep-water port. But think his or Sacramento. can remember yacht was the biggest deep-water boat to go up there. I. I. I. going down. to. Santa Cruz with him.. New York, when was going to college in Philadelphia, can remember going up to New York when the National Paper Trade In. I. I. Association would have meetings at the Waldorf-Astoria [Hotel]. can remember coming over every year and staying at the Waldorf and going to I. meet him.. my father, and my uncle [J.D. Zellerbach], and my aunt would come back. would stay with my folks, but we'd all be in usually the same hotel. remember he loved Voison's restaurant in New York, that was on Park [Avenue] and about 54th. We'd always end up Sunday night at Voison's and then I'd go down and take the train back to He, and. I. I. Philadelphia. Morris:. How had own. W. Zellerbach:. A. super restaurant.. he gotten interested. yachts. in. in. boating? Not too. many people had. their. those days.. don't know, but he had a whole series of yachts. My memory only goes to the yacht that he called the Lady Ada, which was a sail yacht. Then he I. went to the Misslewhit, which was a motor, about seventy feet. Then he went to the Janidore, which was 1 42. That was 1 932 or 1 933. Then he~ because the Janidore was too large-he bought another boat which never was on. They'd go down off Mexico to fish off that boat. I.

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(23) Morris:. found a wonderful photograph of your grandfather fireplace with a painting of a yacht over the mantel I. W. Zellerbach: This was Morris:. in his office at. That was. the office?. in. sitting in front of. a. 343 Sansome. It. is. a wonderful photograph.. It. looks. like. some. great celebration.. W. Zellerbach: That had. be. to. his seventieth or seventy-fifth birthday.. Janidore behind him. Morris:. Where was. W. Zellerbach:. It. was so. it. built.. I. it. tied. up?. up. It would anchor off of Sausalito. He had remember where it was built, at the DeFoe can even one of the Great Lakes. We had beautiful quarters on that. large think. Shipyards at. My. That was the. brother has that painting.. it. couldn't. tie. I. big boat. Morris:. I. understand that during World War. II. it. was converted. to. an army. transport?. W. Zellerbach:. It. was converted and. Alaska. in. I. believe that. the Puget. Sound. I. army generals loved to live off of it up in commissioned and is still a private yacht up Again, my brother can tell you more about that.. think the it. is still. area.. Company's Family Philosophy Morris:. are, in the photo collections, some really giant (they are three and a half feet long) pictures of company outings in the early part of the century. this something your grandfather talked about, how those company. There. Was. picnics. and boat. trips. W. Zellerbach: This was one thing philosophy was, At every meeting. got started?. we I'd. wanted. to talk about with you. His are ail one family. That was my father's philosophy. go to that my father would be in attendance, he. that. I. really. would always get up and say,. 'This. is. our family.". Every place had picnics and Christmas parties, but up through my tenure at Zellerbach Paper Company we'd have a ritual known as pin dinners. For people who worked five years and more, we'd come to the pin dinners. This was a ritual in every location.. Some employees went. all. the. way up. to. fifty. years.. They were. all. With the demise of the company, this is what miss the most, because during my tenure would try to attend every pin dinner in every one of our locations.. well-feted.. I. I.

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(25) Morris:. Travel. all. around the country?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. But that would only take me as far as Salt Lake City and Denver because the other places were relatively new. I'm now talking distribution, not the mills. But would regularly attend all of the pin dinners. This was what my father had done. And looked forward to And they would look forward to me giving them their pins. Many people would come up to me and say, "You know, your grandfather gave me my first pin." I. it.. I. Morris:. I. came across a. interested. in. reference to Louis Bloch back. having. some employee like that. What was. purchase and things. W. Zellerbach:. I. don't think. it. was Bloch as much as. they always kept the corporation retirement plans-.. in. it. in. the. probably was. my. But. uncle, J.D... the forefront of fringe benefits,. Did your uncle ever talk about his thinking on that?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, our are,. 920s becoming. in. Morris:. we. 1. the way of injury and stock the story on this kind of thing?. benefits. whole education was one of, "We are damn lucky to be where and these are our family," and they wanted to take care of them.. That was the tradition almost up to the end. Throughout the company, as they would take over new companies, these things would be introduced. Morris:. Back in the early days, came across references to the Schwabachers and Fleishhackers and other old families in San Francisco also having been part of the early days of the Zellerbach Corporation. I. W. Zellerbach: They were. part of the early formations.. Herbert Fleishhacker. And there was a Schwabacher, yes, James Schwabacher was on the Crown Zellerbach board. board. until his. death.. They would. One. all. was on. the. I'm positive. have started business [about the same time as] Schwabacher-Frey.. my. of the large printers was called grandfather. were excellent customers of ours. They. Crown Zellerbach Corporation and the Great Depression Morris:. In. the 1930s, there. was a new corporate headquarters. built?. W. Zellerbach: That was 343 Sansome. Morris:. Right.. Was. there a special reason for a. W. Zellerbach: That was because. new. building at that point?. merger of Crown Willamette and the Zellerbach needed a headquarters. corporation. They of the. 5.

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(27) Morris:. Was. W. Zellerbach: No, Morris:. it. it. also to celebrate this merger?. was. How was. just they. needed a headquarters. building.. decided that the headquarters would be here. it. in. San. Francisco?. W. Zellerbach:. where the whole business was focused. in San Francisco.. Well, that's. kind. All. business of that. was focused. Morris:. Even though the timberlands and the paper Northwest?. W. Zellerbach:. All. of the financing. came from. here.. The. mills. were. all. up. in. the. focal point for everything. was. San Francisco. Morris:. There are photographs of some absolutely beautiful murals on the history of paper, was this a special project of your grandfather or his wife or who?. W. Zellerbach: They were Morris:. in. They looked. W. Zellerbach: Yes, and. I. the board of directors like. far. Morris:. What's. in. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. you go. if. as. I. 343 Sansome. Street.. somewhere. They could. be. in. the. now?. the building. over, the original building. couldn't tear. still. know.. another building around. They. at. they would have been worth preserving.. think they are preserved. building as. room. it.. This. is after. is still. there. and then they. built. Crown Zellerbach moved out. it was a historical. down 343 Sansome because. landmark.. When became president of Zellerbach Paper [in 1961], we moved our headquarters from 534 Battery to the old headquarters at 343 Sansome, and my uncle's office became my office. We would hold the Zellerbach Paper board meetings in that room that you were talking about. I. The accountants came around on all fixed assets and said, "You know, these drapes and rugs are pretty well-worn." The answer came back, 'They are not owned by the company, they were bought by your uncle." So then traced that down, and they had, during the Depression, when the company almost went bankrupt, they brought in a treasurer-a Scotsman by the name of McLaren-and he would not approve, guess, my uncle's redoing his office, and my uncle said, "I'm going to do it myself." I'll give you a little nostalgic history. to double-check and put the identification. I. I. 6. I.

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(29) McLaren was a wonderful gentleman. He stayed with the company retired. As understand it, he came in and put the fiscal he until constraints on it. My memory tells me that much of the credit for saving I. the for. company goes. my. Morris:. Was. W. Zellerbach:. It. Morris:. to his tight reins, like not allowing the. it that there was no market for paper or that there supplies during the '30s?. was. company. to. pay. uncle's office.. was a shortage. Everyone was over-leveraged,. just the Depression.. I. of. guess.. how fortunate that they found the right person to stave off disaster. the Depression a factor in the decision to merge Zellerbach Paper with Crown Willamette? Well,. Was. W. Zellerbach: That merger was 1927. think that was just at the peak before the Depression. guess everyone in those days took the grand tour to was always a two-month trip, because they got to take the which Europe, train to New York and then take the steamer over to London. As the story goes, that's where my grandfather and Louis Bloch, who knew each other in San Francisco, got together and said, "Okay, let's merge these two I. I. companies." That. is all. Western Paper Industry. the story.. in. the 1940s: the Ravonier Venture. Morris:. There are various references in the papers to how competitive the paper business is, but it seems like your grandfather and your father and your uncle always got along well with the other people in the paper business.. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. one. of the things that. company when. you have. that they built the paper the Sierras were a barrier for. to stress. is. the Rocky Mountains and in. So there were lots of. little paper companies and and and be merging. When you are merging merging they just all through, there really were only a few left. There was Longview Fiber, and Crown Zellerbach, St. Helens, the small Columbia Paper Company. Then in Canada you had Powell River. That was about it just before the. other people coming. seemed. [1. 941. -1. to. 945] war, just after. It.. There was Grays Harbor, which was half-owned by Hammermill and half-owned by Rayonier. And my uncle was president of Crown Zellerbach and also president of Rayonier at the same time. Morris:. Rayonier. Weren't they also early people. W. Zellerbach: Yes, Morris:. that. was. Yes, rayon. in. synthetic fabrics?. their business.. comes from wood. pulp rather than-.

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(31) W. Zellerbach: And wood pulp was. all. part of. Crown. Zellerbach's business.. [end tape 1 side a] [begin tape 1 side b] ,. ,. Morris:. How would company. your uncle have become involved enough. to. become. it.. I. So. see.. that. the Rayonier. president?. The W. Zellerbach: Because they had the ownership of stock was immense. They built the mills. Morris:. in. was a whole. family ownership of Rayonier. other venture that he. was. involved in?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. was also headquartered at 343 Sansome. Crown Zellerbach timber management and Rayonier's timber management were all run by one It. person. Morris:. Who was. W. Zellerbach: Denman, Morris:. Was. it. that? D.S.. same. the. W. Zellerbach: No, they were awful Morris:. I. Denman. timber holdings?. all. separate.. The. mills. were separate. They controlled an. lot.. missed the Rayonier connection completely. That doesn't show up. in. the papers.. W. Zellerbach:. I. guess. it. wouldn't.. tenure that. was. I. believe again that. was. during. my. grandfather's. started.. Banking Connections Morris:. Was. there. enough money. in. the Zellerbach Paper. Company. to finance. these additional holdings or did he have a good banking connection?. W. Zellerbach:. think there were big banking connections. Banker's Trust was on the board of Crown Zellerbach so they must have had some.. Morris:. How. I. about Charlie. W. Zellerbach: Of course. Blyth,. Charlie Blyth. who was. was on. in. the investment business?. the board of directors, too.. are putting [the Zellerbachs] together [with] Charlie Blyth, did all of the issues on it. Morris:. Do you remember. Charlie Blyth?. 8. So now you. who. probably.

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(33) W. Zellerbach:. him, but never knew him. He must have been active the other hand, knew Mr. Dunckel, Wally Dunckel, of Banker's Trust, because sat on the board while he sat on the board. guess was about thirty-four or thirty-five when went on the board. But Rayonier is another whole story. I. remember meeting. I. On. in the '30s.. I. I. I. I. Morris:. W. Zellerbach:. I. Could you kind of sketch It. sprung out of. certainly. viable. had. it. in for. my. and father and was a very Shelton and Grays Harbor. Hoquium, very friendly with the Hammermill Paper. grandfather, uncle,. mills at. company. Then my grandfather, who was It. the record?. Company convinced the Hammermill Paper Company to put a paper machine in Grays Harbor. That paper machine got its pulp from Rayonier, and then the Zellerbach Paper Company was about an 80 percent customer of Grays Harbor. Then they expanded Rayonier and built a mill in. Morris:. Fernandina, Florida.. Because the market was there or the pulpwood was there?. W. Zellerbach: Both. Morris:. W. Zellerbach:. And how I. do?. did that. went out and got a president.. think at that time, they. Usually,. what. over a period of five or six years, the president happens things and my uncle didn't get along, and Rayonier's headquarters was then like that,. in. moved Morris:. to. New. York.. By the president. of the. company?. W. Zellerbach: Of Rayonier. Morris:. The president the. W. Zellerbach: Had brought. in.. family. had brought. in?. But by that time, Rayonier. was on. the. New. York Stock. Exchange. Morris:. As a separate corporation?. W. Zellerbach: As a separate corporation, and my uncle and father were on directors up to the time that it was sold to ITT. Morris:. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. their. board of. Which would be when? I. guess. So. that. it. would be. sounds. like. in. the '60s or early 70s.. sometimes. 9. it's. not such a. good idea. to. go public?.

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(35) W. Zellerbach:. when you. Well,. Morris:. So that by the was needed?. a paper mill and buy woodland, no way you could self-finance it.. build. intense that there. is. W. Zellerbach: Outside money was needed Morris:. all. along.. It. built for. is. so. Rayonier, outside. was always being. money. diluted.. my questions, at what point does the need for outside involve putting the financing people's person on the board?. They were publicly financed, I'm sure, before because there was another merger which probably hasn't come through, which is Fibreboard. That was formed in 1927. It. 1. certainly occurred in 1932.. 932,. Fibreboard Joint Corrugated Box Venture with the Parraffine Morris:. capital-. That was one of. money W. Zellerbach:. was. time the Florida plant. it. Company. There is material about that in the papers. I'd like to know a little more about that because that has an interesting history, too, locally.. W. Zellerbach: Oh, yes. There was the Paraffine Company, run by the Shainwalds. They were in paint and linoleum and boxes, folding boxes. The Zellerbach Corporation was also in the corrugated-box business. We had a huge plant in Stockton that made waste-paper corrugated paper and corrugated-box. Now, a lot of what tell you I'm positive of; but this now, was quite young and a lot of this is hearsay but would say is 95 percent I. I. I. on-track.. They put the Paraffine holdings and the holdings together and called it Fibreboard. Morris:. This. the Shainwalds and your uncle David?. of them. But just their box plants and the corrugated paper. the Paraffine Company, which was later called Pabco, held about 65. W. Zellerbach: Yes,. So. is. of the Zellerbach. this is. all. percent of the assets for theirs and 35 percent were the Zellerbachs'. Yet the Zellerbachs had 50 percent of the voting. Morris:. How. did that. come about?. W. Zellerbach: Because think they were the more aggressive company. So the Paraffine Companies kept their paint and their linoleum business and guess asbestos, kept all of the building material side, and the only thing they spun out was everything dealing with boxes, corrugated boxes, and that's If all that the Zellerbachs spun out. you were to have checked Fibreboard 's market share after the war and before the war, it was probably 75 percent on the West Coast. I. I. 10.

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(37) Joining the Firm: Morris:. Becoming President. Now, by. this time, after the war,. I'm right.. Would you have been. of Zellerbach. you are coming involved. in. Paper Company. 1961. into the business,. and. told history was when came out of the war, got married. father that wanted to take three months off. He said, "Bill, you can always take three months off. Take a week, and want you to come. W. Zellerbach: No, my. if. the sales?. I. I. I. my. I. I. back. to the National Paper Trade Association meetings with me.". went on my honeymoon to Santa Barbara alone with my wife, and we came back after ten days and got on a train and went east with I. then. my mother and. father to attend this National. Paper Trade Association. meeting. Morris:. Did that. W. Zellerbach: No. It. seem. like. a hardship. at that point?. had fought four hard years. I. was. sort of. a. lark with. my. wife. in. the war, been away, had no luxuries.. and. myself.. I. knew. nothing, really, about. the paper business.. On. our. trip. to. New York, we stopped. in. Chicago, went to. Erie,. Pennsylvania-that's where HammermiU's headquarters were-went up to Boston to see the S.D. Warren (which is a coated paper) mills. A coated paper mill that made all of the coated papers up in Maine. So that had to. be a four or. five. week. trip.. stayed with the Zellerbach Paper Company for about a year or so to Crown Zellerbach and worked on their order desk. In those days, when you went into the order desk, you stayed there for three-four years because they felt that should know more about the mill business. I. and then went over. I. Morris:. Okay, now explain that. You take an order from some publisher who wants paper and then you have to make the arrangements with the mill getting. W. Zellerbach:. was a. little cog in the department, writing up orders for all of had nothing to do with the Zellerbach Paper Company. Zellerbach Paper Company was a separate corporation and was just involved in the distribution of paper products. Not the box business, that. Well,. the. was Morris:. for. it?. I. just. mills.. It. Fibreboard.. Okay. Had the corporation yet gotten into what understand became a big business of chemical byproducts of wood products? I. W. Zellerbach: No,. But they never really were big overblown. They were not large.. that hadn't occurred.. overblown,. way. 11. in that.. That was.

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(39) Morris:. Because somewhere there was a reference to half of the value non-paper products, chemicals and paints, and was curious as to what that was all about.. All right.. the tree. W. Zellerbach: No,. is. of. i. that never developed.. Morris:. But you did have to, on the order desk, know about the production capacity of the mills and things like that?. W. Zellerbach:. All. and. of the mills. sales jobs and. all. finally. From there took. of their other customers.. ended up as a manager. I. different. of converted papers,. converted paper sales. Morris:. That's the coated papers?. W. Zellerbach: No, coated papers was printing. Completely separate. This would be IBM paper, it would be corrugated paper that we would sell, then, to other corrugated box places, it would be wallboard tape, it would be Crezon (which was a covering for plywood), it would be kraft-paper bags. It was an amalgamation of the types of industrial papers. Morris:. How. about the tissue and-. was not tissue. wasn't involved in that. That was the consumer was from that position that-- guess my uncle and father still division.. W. Zellerbach: No,. it. I. It. 1. had the authority went from there I. Morris:. Who. to say, "He should be the president of Zellerbach Paper." to being president of Zellerbach Paper.. had been president before you?. W. Zellerbach: His name was Jack. Gilbert.. He went over. to. Crown. to. head. their. marketing. Morris:. So when you went over to be president were involved in all of these other kinds. W. Zellerbach:. All. of these other kinds.. And then was I. of Zellerbach Paper, then of paper products?. you. not involved with anything dealing. with the mills.. Paper. Mills. and Labor Relations. you spend much time. Morris:. Okay. But. W. Zellerbach:. spend about five months living at the Camas in Washington. They took me through the entire Camas mill, one department by the other, so learned the entire process. I. did, with. earlier on,. my. did. family,. I. 12. in. the paper mills? mill. up.

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(41) We. house. Washugal, Washington. My second son seven, eight months, nine months, and my oldest son was three years. It was a wonderful experience.. had a. little. in. was about. It. was a huge. timberlands,. living in. And. mill.. I. spent a good month just. in. the. the lumber camps.. Morris:. Logging camps had a colorful history in the early part of the century for union organizing and activities. How were the Zellerbach company labor relations with the men in the woods?. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. your whole paper industry. in. the northwest inherited the British trade. was tremendous amount of strife. My memory goes back to the Port Townsend mill; there were even killings during the strike. My uncle then took over the labor negotiations and created what was called unions. There. fishbowl bargaining.. Every year, all of the mills and all of the unions would go up-not the timber unions-go up to Portland and they would negotiate the contract. All of the different companies and all of the different mills. guess my I. uncle's philosophy of the fishbowl was that nothing is going to be under are going to speak very frankly, we are going to [do every the table.. We. thing aboveboard].. This. was. vice president], influential.. the period. who you. And they. Now, timber Morris:. when. refer to. Alex Heron [personnel manager and later here [indicates interview outline], was so. did not have labor strife during those periods.. I'm very. vague. They were a separate union.. There are some wonderful photographs from the Crown Willamette lumber operations going way back, including photographs of the lumberjacks, the cook house, the bunkhouses.. had many a meal in the cookhouse, but the men who actually cut the trees were in a different union. They were not part of the fishbowl.. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. I. That was completely separate. Morris:. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. How had I. Mr.. don't know.. He was. Heron gotten to be part. of the firm?. He must have been brought. in,. but. I. don't know.. Sacramento in the 1 940s as head of a study of postwar employment. wondered if he had been loaned by Zellerbach to [Governor Earl] Warren and then come back to the company. in. I. W. Zellerbach:. I. am. see the man. knew the man. he guess theoretical would be the best way to. very vague on that except. was a. very intellectual man.. I. 13. I. can. still. I.

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(43) describe him. A handsome, white-haired man. He was an older man. He would have been older than my uncle and father. Not much. A decade. maybe. Morris:. He was. personnel manager and then he. first. became a. vice president?. you on that except that I'm sure that the idea fishbowl negotiations had to be sponsored by Alex Heron.. W. Zellerbach: Now,. it.]. I. I. can't help. of the. He was well-recognized [in the personnel field] and wrote books [on was very influential though my association with him was not. think he. that close.. Professional. How. Management Problems. Morris:. happen that your uncle took time out from running corporation to go off and be ambassador to Italy?. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. first. back. for. did. it. major. he was head of the Marshall Plan in Italy. Then think he came a year or two, and then was appointed ambassador to Italy. It was at that time my uncle said, "It is time that we have professional management." When he left to be ambassador, he came up with two people to run the company, to be co-chief executives: a man by the name I. of A.B. Layton. Morris:. this. and Reed Hunt.. Co-chief executives?. W. Zellerbach: Co-chief executives. That did not A.B. Layton. and enjoy. was. life.. I. long before Reed Hunt ran. over A.B. Layton. very happy to have an office and be shunted to the side could be a little strong on that, but he was never a factor last. all. from that time on. Morris:. Well, you could almost predict that putting two people they are going to take different roles.. in. as co-anything-. W. Zellerbach: Of course, being very biased, it was the time that professional management got their hands on Crown Zellerbach that the company's decline started. Morris:. Can you pinpoint any particular kinds seemed to emerge at that point?. of decisions or policy directions that. think though my uncle was very much responsible for it, it started with the Gaylord merger. The Gaylord merger occurred after--. Let's see. never did finish Fibreboard.. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. I. I. 14.

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(45) Morris:. Yes, sorry,. interrupted you.. I. W. Zellerbach: Because the same thing. that. happened. to Rayonier. happened. with. Fibreboard. Morris:. The headquarters moved?. W. Zellerbach: Relations between Crown Zellerbach and the Fiberboard management got pretty bad. Then Crown Zellerbach sold all of their interest in Fibreboard, and when they sold their interest, they went and bought Gay lord, which. was a. St.. Morris:. Much. bigger, wasn't. W. Zellerbach:. Well, geographically that time on.. At Morris:. Louis company.. 1 1. by then than Fiberboard?. it,. it. was. located. in. the Midwest.. :30 I'm going to have to cut out. Okay. Well, maybe. I. could. in. It. was. downhill from. a few minutes.. come back another. time?. W. Zellerbach: You are always welcome! Morris:. Well, thank you.. You're a fount of information.. Creating an Employee Severance Package. W. Zellerbach:. I'm glad to tell you what remember. But if you were to ask me some of the things I'd like to really impart, it's this family feeling of the corporation and how well the corporation treated their employees. It was just last I. December. 991 ] that three or four secretaries put together a reunion-. [1. and assistant attorneys and people like that-by word of mouth. They said, "We are going to have a party at a local bar in San Francisco." went down there, and there had to be over 300-350 people.. secretaries. I. They. called. and asked. if. I. would come.. It. was. very. nostalgic.. Morris:. It. even got written up. in. the paper.. [end tape 1 side b] [begin tape 2, side a] ,. W. Zellerbach: Some Morris:. of. what. I. remember, as. I. You. said,. is. very biased.. Is. that fair?. are entitled to your opinion and your recollections. That's what important about this conversation. So tell it the way you see it.. 15. is.

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(47) W. Zellerbach: The last chief executive we had was a man by the name of Creson, and he was a good fifteen years younger than myself. was about sixty-three and was not part of his team, so he relieved me of being president of had an office at One Bush Street with really not much Zellerbach Paper. to do, though remained on the executive committee and on the board of directors. Bill Creson said, 'You are sixty-three, this is a good time for your retirement." And accepted that. It was very boring and had very I. I. I. I. I. I. influence.. little. Creson had a heart problem and he was out of functioning for about two months during this Jimmy Goldsmith phase. During that two-month period, along with another man, we were able to do lots of. Then. things.. Bill. And. I'm not. going. those. into. details.. Creson came back from near-death and just wiped out we had done. In the meantime, this Jimmy Goldsmith was going on and on and on. was never really part of any of the strategy as long as Bill Creson was there. Bill. everything that. raid. I. can still remember, in March or April of I'm taking you off the executive committee.". Then one day, Creson Morris:. Just. W. Zellerbach: Just. said,. like. that?. like that.. He retire,. '85, Bill. I. said,. I. said,. That's. "You can't. I'm. fine.. going to. now because. retire. retire right. now.". of this Goldsmith raid.. If. you. we're gone." I. said, "Well, I'm not. going to stay here. You have. now. stripped. me. of everything.". He. said, 'Well,. what can. I. do. to induce. you. to stay on?". me. put together the severance program." Which he did. wasn't tied to anything. It was Bill Creson, time that there were other big fortunate for me that at that extremely was very takeovers. One of the biggest was Chevron's taking over Gulf. friendly with the CEO of Chevron and spent time with him. He then put I. With. all. said, "Let. due. credit to. I. I. me. in. touch with his. package. for the Gulf. Continental. industrial relations. head,. employees. So we took. Can and a couple. of others,. who. put together their. that package, as well as. and we put together a. very, very. generous severance package. Morris:. That was something that couldn't be fiddled around with by the takeover operation?. 16.

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(49) W. Zellerbach:. It. I'll. couldn't be fiddled around by the takeover. People still come to me, or go to a cocktail party, and they'll say, "Here's to the guy who took care. of us." Morris:. So you preserved. W. Zellerbach: Oh, Morris:. But. their. severance. some. in. pension plan and other benefits?. their. is really. what. of the takeovers. I. I. Not preserved, created.. preserved.. understand that the pension program has. just vanished.. W. Zellerbach: No, Morris:. that can't. happen because. federal law prohibits that from happening.. Is that true? Because understand that in some corporations the new owners have used the retirement fund to pay off some of the junk bonds. I. was over-funded. there was more money in the pension fund than was needed to pay out the pensions, they would take that. But our employees had a terrific severance. was able to walk out and look up in the sky to my grandfather, father, and uncle, and say, "We. W. Zellerbach: They would do. that. if it. If. I. took care of our employees.". Buying and Selling Paper Companies Morris:. When. the. management began. your idea of. Well, they I. loved. left. We. it.. or six years,. Paper, so. I. the. 940s and. 1. 1. 980s. to get away from the family principles and go, did you consider leaving yourself and. how things should. taking your experience to another. W. Zellerbach:. in. I. me. very. much alone. had our own board. was. company?. able to. had a very. Paper Company. And. at the Zellerbach. of directors. and during. all. of. my. last five. distributors in with Zellerbach. merge large paper exciting time and didn't I. need the kudos.. Morris:. Would. W. Zellerbach:. bought that [in 1976]. bought the Stationer's and bought Virginia [Paper Company, 1978] and bought Weaver [Paper Company, 1979]. of this was in three or four years and they were all excellent purchases.. that include Stationers Distributing. I. Company? I. I. I. Morris:. So. this is increasing the distribution organization for. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. But this history shouldn't be me.. Well, but the fact that the Zellerbach. expansion period. W. Zellerbach: Yes, and. that. was. in. the. mine.. 70s. is. But-. 17. I'd like. it. all. of the products?. more-. Paper Company went through an. part of the history of the. company.. All.

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(51) Morris:. Were you. W. Zellerbach: They gave Morris:. And. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. did. it. looking for opportunities to expand?. me. the green. you tap. light to. be able. into the corporate. to. do. it.. revenues?. had to be corporate-financed because we were. part of the. Crown. Zellerbach corporation. Morris:. The notes that came across said that these were new markets Midwest and that was what you were looking to expand into?. W. Zellerbach:. In. Morris:. By then, the company was. I. in. the. the Midwest and the East Coast. the second-largest paper and pulp. like. products organization?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, the. company. wasn't, but. we were. the largest distributor. in. the. country. Morris:. That must have been quite an operation.. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. it. was. fun.. What you. didn't. have. in this. chronology, and. let. me. just. give you this little bit because it is funny; when was still working for Zellerbach Paper, before they took me over to Crown, they had janitorial distribution houses in the East, headquartered in New York. They had a I. house in Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Buffalo, Syracuse, and Chicago, and they weren't making money [Sanitary Products and Paper Corporation.] R.A. McDonald, who was the top marketing head of Crown Zellerbach said, "Bill, you go back there and tell me what's wrong.". janitorial. was just married and everything, having children-l spent weeks back there. came back and wrote my report and said, "Unless you get a new manager, you'd better sell it." So they said, "Bill, go back and manage it." was only about twenty-eight or thirty. said, "I don't want to move back to New York." Then go back and sell it." So spent about three or four months selling these janitorial houses [1949]. We used the Javits law firm, Jack Javits, who was a senator from New York. That was the firm that used to help me sell those five janitorial houses, which was really a super experience. I. about. spent-l. six. I. I. I. I. I. was. odd that here was at thirty years old and selling Eastern distribution companies and then turned around at fifty-five and sixty and was buying another big distribution network. It. sort of. I. 18.

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(53) Mentors and Friends: Family Concerns Morris:. also mentioned the other day that one of the first things your father did when you came into the company was to introduce you to the United. You. States attorney.. W. Zellerbach: Oh, yes. Morris:. Would you care. to. tell. on tape?. that story again. W. Zellerbach: He said, "My father introduced me to you, and now want to introduce my son to you. So you now know three generations of Zellerbachs." I. Morris:. My goodness. How come. the. company. did so. much business. with the. United States Attorney's Office?. W. Zellerbach: Because they were so dominant Morris:. in. the. Did the U.S. Attorney request that the various practices?. West Coast.. company cease and. desist from. W. Zellerbach: Oh, this is a complete history of its own. This had to go on from about 1 927 continually through about '45 or '48. They were always reviewing the company's mergers-they reviewed everything, though never partook was raised in a spirit of, "You don't do anything in anything like that. remember hearing that they had cease and desist orders for illegal," that happened back in the '30s. fixing prices; I. I. I. Morris:. Who. were the attorneys. that your father. and uncle. relied. upon?. W. Zellerbach: They used Sullivan, Cromwell in New York and Philip Ehrlich on the West Coast and the Orrick office on the West Cast. So it was Sullivan, Cromwell and Phillip S. Ehrlich, Sr. Morris:. Had. Phillip Ehrlich, Sr.. been a personal. friend of. your grandfather's over. the years?. W. Zellerbach: He was more a personal friend of my uncle and father. He was really the family attorney. He was also very successful in his own right. He was on the board of directors of the Zellerbach Paper Company. Morris:. So you had personal. W. Zellerbach: Oh, Morris:. opportunity to. know. him, too?. yes.. What and a. kind of advice did he have for you as an older friend of the family?. 19. member. of the. board.

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(55) W. Zellerbach: Oh, he was a rough, tough, smart man who spoke his mind, but wonderful relationship with htm. In fact, really had wonderful. I. had a. I. relationships with almost Morris:. They were mentors as. W. Zellerbach: They were mentors. Good. Did you bring. W. Zellerbach:. Rarely.. Morris:. How. did. my. well as friends?. in. in. listen. and always learned.. people from other paper companies?. George James come. understand he came. elder peers.. always would. I. Morris:. all. be. to. part of the outfit, then,. from Arcata Lumber. because. I. Company?. because we had a weak treasury department, and by the name of Charles LaFollette, who was He left to go to be the chief financial officer of CBS. extremely ambitious.. W. Zellerbach: George James came they brought a. Morris:. Oh,. really.. man. in. in. That's a switch,. isn't it?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. And Arcata was public company which was taken over by a private company, and George James was available. He didn't want to stay when Arcata was sold. George James and myself are still very, very good friends. He sits on the board of the Zellerbach Family Fund. My respect for George James is so high. Morris:. What. W. Zellerbach: He's Morris:. particularly. smart, honest, above-board.. The two. W. Zellerbach: He's a Morris:. about him?. of. you kind. terrific. of. see eye-to-eye on a. lot of. things?. man.. Good. Well, this is time for your next appointment. think we've done most everything, but maybe another half hour sometime? I. W. Zellerbach: Sure, anytime you want. Have you contacted my brother yet? Morris:. I. have talked with. W. Zellerbach: As. far. I. hope. to. be able to see him soon.. is concerned, he just was a student of it. He collected his recollection of history will be better than mine.. as history. everything.. So. Morris:. Your sense. of the. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. I. his secretary.. was. in. the. dynamics. of the. company and he 20. company wasn't.. is really. helpful, too..

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(57) Did he work for the firm at. Morris:. all?. W. Zellerbach: He worked in the paper company when was president. Then he wanted to go off and do other things. There was never any question that was going into the company. I. I. Morris:. How. W. Zellerbach:. Well, they. about your cousins? Who's. came. all. into the. Who says. company,. there were. two-?. [but not for very long.]. enjoy working, and I've always thought of myself as a humble don't believe in love people and get along with people. person. perquisites; believe you earn everything that you get. When my father and uncle owned most of the company, any of the employees would have been happy to shine their shoes. think some other relatives felt that they I. I. I. I. I. I. were owed the same kind Morris:. of treatment.. Yes, that can be. difficult. Did you ever talk to your father or your uncle about your feelings about what was happening to the management of. Crown Zellerbach? that time, my uncle was an my father and had long talks. ambassador and then he died young. But about what might be done. By that time we figured that the family controlled only about 20 percent of the stock so that there was not much that we could do. And it would have been very hard on my father if we had tried to make a change and lost.. W. Zellerbach: By. I. [end tape. Interview with William. 2,. side a]. Zellerbach. J.. Interviewer:. Gabrielle Morris. Transcriber:. Kian Sandjideh. [Interview 2:. August 31. ,. 1. 992]. [begin tape 2, side b]. Consumer Paper Morris:. Specialties:. Commercial Suppliers. weeks ago in relation to the The Bancroft Library, I'd like to there may the papers that wonder. Picking up our conversation a couple of Crown Zellerbach Corporation papers in. some of the items be a company story about.. continue with. This that. is. in. I. if. a photograph of Spring Notch toilet tissue from the 1 920s in a hotel in Fresno recently. The report is that Crown. was found. 21.

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(59) Zellerbach pioneered. household:. W. Zellerbach:. toilet. in. tissue. what we now have as a staple on a roll. Is that true?. of every. know whether was true of toilet tissue. do know was true of interfolded towels. Anyone of my age and much younger would remember the cabinets that had on "Rub, don't blot." The Zellerbach owned for the that first interfolded towel. That's why Corporation patent I. don't. it. it. I. it,. they bought the Carthage Paper Mill back in New York. They had a mill that could make this product. That was the state of the art at that time.. From But the. on they had all of the modern folded paper products. patent on that "Rub, don't blot" interfold lasted sufficiently gave them the strong presence in the towel and tissue, including that time. initial. long that. business.. toilet tissue,. Actually, Carthage, New York, was a waste paper mill really make soft tissue. They made the first paper diaper.. Morris:. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. W. Zellerbach:. When would I. can. Did you. try. didn't. that be, roughly?. was. you. That. tell. and. it. in. 1946-1947.. out on your children?. remember when they came out. John, my eldest son, was a baby and got them from the Silklin Corporation, which was one of the companies owned by the corporation that sold the paper diapers. My wife's comment, when she looked at was, "I'm going to put cloth on my baby!" I. we. it,. [laughter]. Morris:. Were. the. first. ones kind. W. Zellerbach: Oh, they were rough,. was. of. yes.. rough compared to what. They. didn't. know how. to. we have now? make. soft tissue.. It. called Natapak.. If you recall, mentioned that we had a series of janitorial houses scattered throughout the east. They were mainly to sell interfolded towels I. and Morris:. So. toilet. tissue as. a. distributor of. the paper baby diapers were a. consumer products.. new. venture into consumer products?. W. Zellerbach: Oh, it was completely new. don't know how they sold never saw on a grocery shelf. It could have been tried in New York State and it could have been institutional, but it just never really went. was not a good product because the paper was still too coarse. it.. I. I. It. Morris:. Would those products have been Zellerbach Paper. Company? 22. in. your. territory. as president of. it.

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(61) W. Zellerbach: No. When. I. was. president of Zellerbach Paper. Company, the sales. of. tissue products to the grocery store went through the wholesale grocer or to the large chain, and did not go through the paper distributor. It was a. working relationship between the mill and the wholesale grocer and/or the large grocery buyer, which would be Safeway or Lucky or whatever the big one was in those days. direct. First. Morris:. I. West Coast Coated Paper Equipment. came across a number. of references to working with Time, Inc., the. publishers?. W. Zellerbach:. In 1950, the Crown Zellerbach Corporation was interested in building a coated paper machine on the West Coast and looking [for a customer so there would be a market for what we produced]. That would have been the first coated paper machine. Before they built it, they signed a contract with Time to supply their paper on the West Coast and then Time. magazine was printed Morris:. Who. for the first time. on the West Coast.. put that deal together?. W. Zellerbach: A man by the name of R.A. McDonald. He was an executive vice president of Crown Zellerbach and more or less headed their marketing department. Morris:. That must have been a big coup for the company.. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. it. was. They had the only coated paper machine on the West Coast. for twenty-five, thirty years.. Morris:. So. W. Zellerbach: Of. that. that. wanted coated paper automatically came-. this special kind,. it. mass media.. It. by the Morris:. anybody. was was. called. ground wood coated. That was used. not used for high-quality printing.. Would this be for Sunday supplement, the magazine sections Sunday paper?. W. Zellerbach: That is even poorer graded paper. This would be for things magazine or Sunset magazine or any trade magazine. Morris:. Where. did. W. Zellerbach: That was Morris:. Was. this. you. at. build the coated. West. Linn,. of the. like. Time. paper plant?. Oregon.. something that your uncle and your father had been trying to. develop?. 23.

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(63) W. Zellerbach: This would. all. be because. R.A.. McDonald,. my. uncle and father worked as. a team. Morris:. Did you. know McDonald?. W. Zellerbach: Oh, very well. went to his younger than McLaren that I. funeral, too. I. He was a man maybe a decade last time, and he was a. you about the. told. very astute person, really very down to earth, nothing fancy about him. But he was smart and he was a good, good businessman. Morris:. Had he grown up. with the. company, as. it. were?. W. Zellerbach: No, he came to the company when they bought Western Wax Paper Company. He had headed Western Wax Paper Company and when the corporation bought Western Wax, he came into the executive ranks. Morris:. Were. his skills primarily financial. and business associations or were they. manufacturing?. W. Zellerbach: No, he Morris:. just. was a. great entrepreneur for the time.. One of the references to Time and the coated paper showed a photograph of a big freighter, a big ship. Would that have been bringing the coated paper from the mill?. W. Zellerbach: No,. that. was a. different deal.. That was a ship that was specially. came. after R.A. McDonald. This was during P.O. Hunt's tenure. They built a mill at Antioch, California, to run liner board for corrugated boxes. They brought the pulp down in this specially built ship. designed-. Actually,. this. Duncan Bay.. called the. The ship would come down from Elk Falls to Antioch and discharge the pulp in a dry form, then water would be added and the mixture run over a paper machine. The whole thought was that they could save on transportation costs. Morris:. If. they shipped the pulp rather than the finished. W. Zellerbach: Than the Morris:. How. did. roll. it. of. liner. paper board, yes.. come. that the. company. built its. own. ship rather than hiring. shippers?. W. Zellerbach: Because, again a very biased Morris:. I. like. board?. report-. your biased reports. They are very informative..

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(65) W. Zellerbach: The. Reed Hunt, and Dan Ludwig, who was the. chief executive officer,. became was for oil or cement friendly. was between Reed Hunt and Dan Ludwig who built or what-have-you. the ship, the Duncan Say-the concept came about. large shipbuilder person, a multi- multimillionaire at that time,. Dan Ludwig. built. special ships, whether. it. It. Morris:. Was. W. Zellerbach: No, Morris:. built. it. it. was. here on the West Coast?. buiit in. Japan.. Did Ludwig build most of his ships. W. Zellerbach: Yes. That was when Japan was Morris:. This. was. after. we had been. in. just. Japan? coming out. of the war.. shipping them our scrap metal?. I. remember. that being a big flap in the '30s.. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. There was enough pulp needed busy all day all year-round?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, that. Morris:. So what happened. was. the idea, but to the. W. Zellerbach: You leased the ship. it. at the. didn't. Antioch plant to keep that big ship. work. that way.. Duncan Bay?. or whatever the financial arrangements were. When goodbye with great glee because it was a. that finally expired, they said. money Morris:. loser.. Crown Zellerbach was happy. to. be through with that?. W. Zellerbach: Oh, boy, were they ever happy. Morris:. That's interesting that even though. it. was. specially built. it. was. not. economically a good thing?. W. Zellerbach:. It. never worked.. Environmental Morris:. Good. Citizenship. Over the years, has the company had much in the way of fussing from communities around the paper plants about the chemical aromas?. W. Zellerbach: When. went up to live in Camas, preceded my wife coming up, and picked her up at the airport. As we drove to Camas she said, Tom (our I. I. 25. I.

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(67) second son, who was a baby then) must have done something." "No, honey, that's not Tom, that's the paper mill." People. was a Morris:. in. those days realized that. smell that they would get used. if. they wanted a. No one. to.. really. good. I. said,. job, this. complained.. At that time, could any of the chemicals be reclaimed?. W. Zellerbach: Oh, they would do everything possible that the technology at that time allowed. They would spend money on scrubbers and things like that, but the cost [was pretty high] and they just didn't have the technology to do anything [much] about. it.. How. Morris:. about environmental concerns begin to respond to those issues?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, the. company always wanted. in. to. When. general.. be a good. did the. citizen.. We. company. mentioned. before they were very serious about tree farming. believe we were one of the first into tree farming, and would open up the forests for the people to enjoy, and allowed hunting in the forests. They would always do their I. clear-cutting away from the population, always reforested so that you had the regeneration of the trees. They were always excellent citizens.. Everything to Morris:. Was. make a happy community.. the recreation and reforesting done by your own employees or in connection with the state forestry people?. was. done. that. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. was. it. all. company-originated.. Employee Events Morris:. we. While. are on the. good citizenship thing, have a little collection of found amongst the papers that really enjoyed. There was a wonderful brochure about Crown Zellerbach Day at the Treasure Island World's Fair [REF TO CZ BOX]. Do you remember that? On April 8, 1939.. things that. W. Zellerbach:. Well,. I. was. had an Morris:. The. I. I. in. I. college during those days.. I. know. that. Crown Zellerbach. exhibit there.. exhibit. was. part of the. permanent displays. at the fair?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. The the. festivities at Crown Zellerbach day at the fair included a concert by Crown Zellerbach choral society, do you remember that?. W. Zellerbach: No. 26.

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(69) Morris:. I. thought that maybe there was an employee choir that sang. parties that the. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. I. never remember. Way back company. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. that.. into the early. 1900s there are some wonderful photographs of. outings and boat trips on the bay.. my grandfather's yacht used to bring the or parties just steaming around the bay. That's very generous. I'm sure. W. Zellerbach: Yes, but Morris:. company. that. was the whole. employees out there. I. wasn't there, but. I. for. spirit.. Did you sign up or did he send around a notice saying, This going to take the accounting department?". W. Zellerbach: Again,. at holiday. put on.. week. would hear that they would have these. I'm. parties.. Institutional Advertising. Morris:. Then there was a series December of 1 965.. of. ads that appeared. in. the Wall Street Journal. in. W. Zellerbach: Now, these ads were. part of an institutional advertising campaign to get people to know the corporation and understand what the corporation was all about. believe it was an advertising agency by the name of Hill & who still are in business, that composed these ads. Knowlton, I. Morris:. This ad has the, what. think of as being the. I. Crown Zellerbach. trademark/logo.. W. Zellerbach: That was the consumer thought Morris:. Is. that. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. Yes,. I. it. it. was. logo. old-fashioned,. when you went always liked. And. then, after a period of time, people. and the trademark was changed.. to the big Zee, sort of. this. has got a kind of. modern. one [CZ surmounted by a nice, distinguished. air.. script. Zee?. stylized crown].. When. did. you go. to the. Zee?. W. Zellerbach:. I. think that. would have been. in. never a very popular trademark Morris:. Why. is. that?. 27. the late seventies.. among. The new trademark was. the employees..

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(71) W. Ze Her bach: Because Morris:. I. think everyone liked the old one.. Yes? The employees had a. feeling for tradition. and things. like. that?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. Whose. idea, within the. company, was. it. to. do. this kind of institutional. campaign?. W. Zellerbach:. Well, that usually would come from the executives who were worried that the stock wasn't doing very well, that people didn't know the corporation. Good institutional advertising people would make calls on corporations and sell them the idea of going out on an institutional campaign.. Morris:. So. this. would be coming from the advertising/pubic. W. Zellerbach: And the executives who were desirous. known among people in all parts increased name recognition. Morris:. of. relations industry?. be better the country. There would be that the corporation. At the commercial and industrial level?. W. Zellerbach: To the buyers. That's. of stocks, to the financial buyers.. where those ads. are pointed. Morris:. Did. it. work?. you see it all the time. You see and then they back away and then they go into corporations going think it works for don't think it worked for Crown Zellerbach. General Electric. Today you'll see ads from Weyerhauser and Georgia Pacific, and they, again, are directed just to the financial markets.. W. Zellerbach: No. But. institutional advertising,. into. it.. Morris:. it. I. I. Silly. me,. I. always thought. it. was. directed to the housewife buying. supplies.. W. Zellerbach: No, not in the Wall Street Journal, Fortune Magazine, Business Week, where these ads ran.. Civil. Morris:. Rights Policies: Acquisition of Gavlord Container Corporation. 1955. we. in the '60s, I'd like to ask you about the company's a developing policy on civil rights. In the company papers there is a file about what was going on at the [Gaylord Division] good-sized Bogalusa [Louisiana] plant?. Since. are. 28.

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(73) W. Zellerbach: That. was. is. in. almost modern. history.. I'm not. all. that conversant. the distribution side of the business and this. was. on. the. it. because. I. My. mill side.. come from executive committee meetings and the board of directors meetings. As recall, Bogalusa was the second place picked out in the paper industry. The first was Selma, Alabama, which was a mill owned by Hammermill. information would. I. Then they came down to Bogalusa and it was one of those things where you were caught in the middle; no matter what you did when you have people with a cause, [you were wrong.] [end tape 2, side b] [begin tape 3, side a]. W. Zellerbach: The Bogalusa. was acquired through. the Gaylord Container Corporation purchase [in 1955]. Gaylord manufacturing was run by a man by the name of Virtries Young, who was an old-time southerner who lived in. mill. Bogalusa.. He was. am sure we would have part of the Gaylord organization. Virtries Young to have commingled the restrooms there. I. had to [remove]. He was a staunch Morris:. southerner.. Photographs of the plant show an absolutely tremendous in a heavily wooded area.. facility,. along. the water and. W. Zeilerbach:. It was a very large facility, but it was a most inefficient plant. It was too old, not kept modernized. The width of the paper machines was the wrong trim-that is as corrugated machines got wider, the paper [produced. would be less economical.]. As an example, the best way four 50-inch rolls or two. 1. 00-inch. to sell that 200-inch. rolls.. So. if. machine would be. the corrugated got larger,. went from 50 to 65 inches, you would have what they 35 inches that you wouldn't know what to do with.. call. a stubbed. roll. a whole number of reasons. As mentioned in my previous conversation, from the purchase of Gaylord, from that time on, there were years of extremely poor financial results for the Crown Zellerbach Corporation. The Gaylord division affected the company as a whole. The whole amalgamation of the Gaylord Corporation into the Crown Zellerbach Corporation was a very difficult one.. There were. Morris:. Why was. just. I. that?. W. Zellerbach: Because you came from two different cultures. The southern and the western? The Gaylord Corporation was a St. Louis institution and they. 29. of.

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(75) were very proud, and they were not going to. integrate Gaylord into. Crown. Zellerbach. did they. do the deal. Morris:. Why. W. Zellerbach:. Well, they did the deal. with. Crown Zellerbach?. because. for. That's really interesting.. who was a Gaylord deal. Many times when those. a person. stockholder, it was a very, very lucrative deals are made, part of the deal is the old chief executive officer would. still. run what he used to run, the way he used to run it. He was assured of a job and he would go on the board of the parent corporation.. to run their facilities. clashes between the way Gaylord wanted and the way Crown Zellerbach would have liked to. have seen them run. their facilities.. There were. Morris:. I. fierce, fierce. can see where that would be really tough. Did any of those people to San Francisco and become a part of the Crown Zellerbach. come. organization?. W. Zellerbach: Eventually some Morris:. It. was. level. of. them. St.. of the top people. forth at the. middle. management. than at the upper?. Louis. W. Zellerbach: No, not Morris:. none. move people back and. easier to. W. Zellerbach: They wouldn't leave Morris:. did, but. is. St. Louis.. a long way from Bogalusa.. that long.. It's. only. down. the. river.. maybe being more cosmopolitan and the people in Louis might be more like people in San Francisco and Chicago and New York than like the people in Bogalusa. I. think of St. Louis as. St.. W. Zellerbach: True, the southern people ran Bogalusa. The St. Louis people were very in-grown people, very similar to San Francisco; they ran the symphony and gave all of the money to various civic functions in St. Louis and the universities around there. They were not going to change that. Morris:. Were they more were involved. in. in the things going on in St. Louis that they than the running of the paper mills? Was that just a. interested. source of money?. W. Zellerbach: No, it wouldn't be ego was.. that at. all.. It. 30. was, This. is. my. turf," this. was where your.

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(77) Morris:. can see where that could get kind of tough. Did the St. Louis group share the ideas of the Bogalusa people about civil rights and employee I. relations?. W. Zellerbach:. I. know.. just wouldn't. I. imagine that Virtries Young, who was a fine for Gaylord and he was the number two man, he. gentleman, had worked. the manufacturing man. A the CEO and more or less. was was. man by in. Had Crown. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. I. always. So to. Virtries. Zellerbach already developed a. opportunity and felt. that. fair. name. Ed. of Spiegel,. the marketing end.. manufacturing was concerned, that was dared go into Bogalusa. Morris:. the. As. far. Spiegel,. as the. Young's province; no one. company. policy about equal. employment?. we were. always on the cutting edge of. San Francisco you had been looking promote them? in. to bring. in. it.. black employees or. W. Zellerbach: Always. And women. Morris:. How. W. Zellerbach:. In the Zellerbach Paper Company, our advertising and sales promotion manager was a woman by the name of Glory Carlberg. Glory ran that. early did. women move beyond. from about 1950 Morris:. until. she. Had she worked. Really?. secretarial. and. clerical. jobs?. retired.. her. way up through. the. company?. W. Zellerbach: Yes. Morris:. How. about your mother and grandmother? Did they take an active. interest in the. company?. W. Zellerbach: No. Now, whether my grandmother did it when the business would doubt But certainly my mother never did.. started,. I. it.. Morris:. How much. time did the executive committee have to spend on the. rights action against the plant. W. Zellerbach: During those. Morris:. that.. It. The. files. times,. it. was. like. in. civil. Bogalusa?. a war. for the executives. who were. handling. preoccupied everyone.. have what look. like daily bulletins.. As. if. somebody was. calling in. from Bogalusa to say-. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. all. of the time.. A. lot. of their lives. Bogalusa. 31. were being threatened down. at.

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(79) Morris:. Was. this. a local committee of black employees?. W. Zellerbach: No, this would have been what came out movement. This was the start of. of the Martin Luther King,. Jr.,. it.. Morris:. Of the increased visibility and bringing attention to bear on inequalities of employment? Would the activity in Bogalusa have been put together an organized civil rights group? Would there have been white and black people involved?. W. Zellerbach: Morris:. I. just don't. know.. There were also people. who. picketed the. company headquarters here. in. San Francisco? W. Zellerbach: Morris:. I. really don't. remember much. came across. in. the. way. of that.. Very. little.. an impressive speech by Mr. P.T. Sinclair on civil rights employment. [REF TO PAPERS] wonder if he would have been the guy who was in charge of implementing equal employment in I. and. Crown. quite. fair. I. Zellerbach.. W. Zellerbach: He headed our short time, after in. industrial relations. department. Reed Hunt, he was. for. a while and then for a and before that,. chief executive officer,. charge of manufacturing, so Bogalusa would have been reporting to. him. Morris:. I. see.. So he. kind of. moved around. W. Zellerbach:. In. Morris:. But then industrial relations. in. the. company?. the manufacturing side.. seems. like. personnel. management. rather than. making paper.. W. Zellerbach:. Well, yes.. Morris:. Would he have. Zellerbach:. He always had someone who would touch-up his speech, but the speech would have been company policy. The company had no problems with the civil rights legislation. Now, the southerners would have had problems accepting it and did have problems accepting it.. Morris:. Did that contribute to the problems you were speaking of. It. was, again, a career step. written the. speech himself?. in. the lack of. profitability?. W. Zellerbach: That. certainly. would have because how disruptive can something be?. 32.

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(81) Morris:. have a beginning and an end, or was continued to cause disruption?. W. Zellerbach:. think it went on, off and on, for many years. It was easy to take down the sign for a black men's room and a white men's room [in the south], or to say one locker room, but the blacks wouldn't go into the whites' and. Did. it. it. I. the whites wouldn't go into the blacks' side of Morris:. something that sort of. How about training and job advancement? area?. no matter what they. it,. Was. there any progress. did.. in. that. W. Zellerbach: Oh, we made good progress. know with the Zellerbach Paper Company, we would have sensitivity training; like people would talk with our employees about why do blacks wear hats, why do blacks wear dark glasses-to make people understand why they do that and to accept them. We spent a lot of time on As was part of every management we'd do this. conference, I. it.. Morris:. Within the. company. or. when people went. off to. management conferences. industry-wide.. company. It just was doctrine that everyone had to do know in the Zellerbach Paper Company, when we would find a manager who wouldn't do we would replace him. Where did you go looking for men and women who were black to bring. W. Zellerbach: Oh,. within the. it.. I. it,. Morris:. into. the-?. W. Zellerbach: We'd. recruit at colleges.. they were recruited Morris:. And. generally,. how. all. We. had tremendous recruitment programs, so. of the time.. did they. do. in. W. Zellerbach: On the West Coast, no problems. the company, at. do you remember?. all.. Morris:. It. worked easier on the West Coast?. W. Zellerbach:. It. worked very easy, yes. There was never any problem.. Morris:. Why do you suppose. W. Zellerbach:. was our policy and, as said, we liked to bill ourselves as a family corporation. Whoever was an employee was a member of the family. And you had to be a good citizen. First,. that is?. it. I. 33.

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