Transcription of Interviews. Location: Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. 1. Interview with Dr. Susan Mpanga Mukasa, PSI...page 2-18

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Transcription of Interviews

Location: Dar es Salaam, Tanzania

Table of Content

1. Interview with Dr. Susan Mpanga Mukasa, PSI……...……...…...page 2-18

2. Interview with Happy Timbuka, Restless Development…...page 19-27

3. Focus-group with Local Men…………...………...…page 28-46

4. Interview with Mary………...………..………...page 47-70

5. Interview with Salim, Peer-to-Peer Manager in Restless

Development…………...…...page 71-80

6. Focus-group with Peer-educators, PSI………...page 81-108

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1. Interview with Dr. Susan Mpanga Mukasa, PSI

Interviewer:

Just, we're looking into possible differences, and how you structure a program based on the different social groups that you work with. Is there like a ..

Subject:

In which way? Are you focusing on a matter or area? HIV? Interviewer:

HIV, yeah. HIV and condom use and prevention and that .. Subject:

Yeah, we do. Because we have the key populations and the key population is quite big, it is commercial sex-workers and men having sex with men, and ehm, injection drug users. So it is a wide – you know, signature market, because then they have totally different needs.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

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Yeah, and what we do are, our project is basically bottom up and – kind of chopped down bottom and we meet somewhere in the middle. Because we have to work within an environment .. that has a legal framework. Government of Tanzania .. Sexual work is illegal. But we have decided as a government to take a public health-approach. Which makes a lot of sense, you can still – you know, try to prevent HIV-transmission amongst sex-workers and amongst their clients. So there is actually a government-funded program by Global Fund that focuses on that, and also United States government program that focuses on healthy female sex-workers access to quality services and – just recently, in fact, they should be linked. A hundred percent of female sex-workers who are testing HIV-positive should be linked into services. So, ehm, let's see. So, we have have that for female sex-workers, for men having sex with men, that is a little bit more sensitive. But the government documents have still allowed for programs to reach men having sex with men, to provide health-services. So, especially HIV-testing and, eh, care linking them to, you know .. care support. So we do that under one of our major projects. We do a lot of research. We've done .. recently completed – Unfortunately, I, the research, the paper we may not be able to share now, because it hasn't been approved by Ministry of Health. But it will soon be, it should be by the November 28th I think. Ehm, it will be

public information and it is, you know, all about the behavior, you know, of the different groups. It's an IBBS-study understanding, you know, the non-age attitudes and practices of the different key-population groups, and you know – we use that information to form a program.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

Because, if they want services here, we are trying to make the services here in light of what their needs are. And of course, like, for female sex-workers we find them, we have two categories. We have female sex-workers – And they are all different and they have

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different needs – those who are on the roadside, and those who are in brothels. A totally different group. So, the ones on the roadside are maybe a little bit harder to provide services to because .. you know, even when you – what we have been doing in the past, is we referring them to effused selected sites, ehm .. where we think there'll be friendly sites. That is not always the case, because there is always stigma and discrimination, so they don't go.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

You know, so, what we are doing – starting in 2015, based on the information we have collected in 2014 – is, we are going to take mobile services to them, with, and also we have created four drop-in centers. And we will expand these drop-in centers funding alarming. The drop-in centers, you know, we go provide the service and send them to a drop-in center. Which is managed by us to be friendly. They can spend the day, doing a number of activities discussing amongst them – It is like a peer-support group. Discuss business, many times it is just – when you look at it, actually, their profile, because we profile our target group. So that we really understand what their needs are, how they behave, when do they – to the detail of when do they wake up – how do they .. So it is in our program, that it makes sense. And then many of them have said that they are in this business not because they really want. They are in the business because they – for economic reasons. They have kids, they have families. In Africa it is all about the family network, it's beyond the nuclear family. You have to help your brothers, cousins in the village, you know, to study. So we do, you know we, then we make this program, and at the DICC-center we are trying to interrupt with a number of, you know, economic, and we are planning to do what we didn't in 2014. Economic empowerment programs. They may not be funded by us, but we do just the linkages. You know, so that they can start a

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generating income. So, that is what we do for the street. Then for the – once in the brothels, we go and – it is much easier. Because structure. So you can actually take services to that on, you know, on specific days. But we also give information for [inaudible], because there is not a day when they are not coming for this, with the

service. Then, for [inaudible] it is a little bit harder, so we do more like a snowball, like a peer in the same organization that work directly with the [inaudible], so we work with those organizations to put some structure to the within, to the work. Because, they have been working in a [inaudible]. And some principles, you know some principles. How do you serve people better? How do you maintain confidentiality? You know, all those principles that are important for the group. So, it's a snowball kind of reach, and it is a peer-based approach. The general population, it is like [inaudible] youth, 15-19 and 20-24.

Interviewer: Okay. Subject:

They have special needs. Because 15-19 mainly are in school, ehm, some, you may find some out of school so you have different programs for both. The ones in school, you go through the mainstream education ministry, to try and give information and services. Interviewer:

So that's how you contact youth in that specific age group? Through the ministry. Subject:

Yes. The ones in school. That is where you go to the ministry of education and say «Guys, we need to talk about HIV». They need to know this information, they will give

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us a slot, a class, 30 minutes class where we can come in and either train the teachers – so that they can pass on this information – or come in there once in a while and talk about it.

Interviewer:

Okay, so you're actually trying to incorporate the understanding of .. Subject:

Yes, into the curriculum. Interviewer:

To the youth. Subject:

And the goal is to really .. you know, put it as a part of the curriculum. Any many, eh – I think the government has made significant progress with that. Then, the out-of-school-youth, you have to find them in youth-centers. Talk with the organizations that, you know, are working with youth, maybe for activities, you know, maybe, you have one to play, one to do exercises. They just want fun. So you, we work with organizations that are .. are dealing with the youth so that we can still incorporate HIV-messages and curriculums of .. and tail that curriculum to them through these organizations. Then, the ones 20-24 are mainly in university, and there are those in university and those in technical colleges and, auto .. self-employed. So we have different strategies of reaching them, based on what they tell us. You know, if they tell us they prefer services in a marketplace because that is where I spend my day, then you have to do mobile-services to them.

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Sorry, so the youth that is not attending school, you reach to them through the mobile solutions? Subject: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Subject:

For anyone out of school, it is mobile solutions and peer-based approach. Because it is very hard to .. you know, under a mango tree.

Interviewer: He he, yes. Subject:

So you must get a peer who knows the program. And one thing that we are going – that we are tucking into, and that is definitely going to be the best, is .. technology. Use of technology. I mean they always want something, whenever they can, because it is also expensive but the messaging, Facebook, when they are able to access on Facebook. We use technology-calling, you know, with a toll-free line. If they have, you know, issues. Because they – unfortunately, the way the health sector is set up .. The health-centers are normally manned by mothers and fathers of this youth.

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Interviewer:

Okay, he he. Subject:

And they can be judgmental. Interviewer:

Yeah. Okay. Subject:

So, that is why you always have to .. you know, kind of give them a room, space for – to be able to confidentially ..

Interviewer: Yes. Subject:

Discuss those issues. Interviewer:

And that's where you have those .. peer-to-peer education. Subject:

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Absolutely. Because if you have peer-to-peer, then you want to set .. One thing that we definitely want to is to work with people at hot-lines. So that they can call in

anonymously, we don't need to know .. We need to know their issue. Not who the person is.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

And provide the right information for them. So, so, with segments based on that .. And information that we gather, that we search .. And, yeah. Do our programming.

Interviewer:

So the .. like the peers that you have, do you employ them or are they volunteers or .. Subject:

They are volunteers. Ehm, and that has its problems. People don't like to and should of course not work for free.

Interviewer: Mhm. Subject:

You know, you can't do that in a long term. So we have faced challenges where you .. Because even training, they have to get to the level where they can support others. It is

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a lot of money, costs money. So if they are not motivated to continue and they have to drop off and then do some other thing, then that is a lot of investment. So what we are trying to do, using technology still, is .. turn them into some social entrepreneurs. If you are providing, if you seem to be providing through mobile phone – mobile phone in Tanzania is like 76% coverage –, so that is high, compared to other places. So, if we use technology and we can track the quality of their work ..

Interviewer:

Yeah. Okay. Subject:

Through technology, and therefore, pay them. Interviewer:

After how many .. Subject:

Performance based. Interviewer:

Yes. Subject:

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going to be doing with launching something in November, in 2015 we are going to .. It has worked perfectly, if you google Movercado. It is M-O-V-E-R-C-A-D-O. Movercado. If you google Movercado, you can see, in PSI Mozambique that they have tried this out, and it is pretty easy. It is a platform that supports the Eco-system. The Eco-system here for the youth could be .. You know, where they hang out. Their organizations that support them. The places where they go to pick their condoms. The places where they go to pick their cigarettes.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

You know and, alcohol and .. all that. And then link this Eco-system and provide

information at all those points, so when they come to take a cigarette, you talk about the risks .. involved and maybe linking it to HIV. And showing them where they can get services in case they need them. So that you just plug .. through technology and then you can follow through unique identifier-codes, and that way we believe more youth will .. we will reach more youth, because it is really a hard group to reach.

Interviewer:

So, eh, when you have these .. These volunteers, in the peer-to-peer and also in the mobile-centers, I guess that is also some sort of volunteers?

Subject: Mhm. Interviewer:

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Ehm, which level of education do they receive from PSI before going out, and which people? Do they get education or ..

Subject:

They do. We do. We have a curriculum that we have developed, working closely with the government. Government has a youth-section and .. you know, a section that deals with general ball-point, they have all these constructed .. So we have a curriculum that is youth-friendly, that has been developed, that has been tested. And you know, pre-test, post-test.

Interviewer: Ah, okay. Subject:

To make sure you are qualified. And then support-supervision to see the quality of your work for around three months. So it is a fairly thorough .. you know ..

Interviewer: Process. Subject:

Process, yes. Interviewer:

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Subject:

Absolutely. Otherwise, we worry that by doing that you just spread people's .. you know, it is all perceptions, there are all individual perceptions of others. And yet you are giving them this kind of identity in the community as the person who knows, so we must be sure that you know what you are talking about.

Interviewer:

Yes, of course. Just when you .. interact with the youth, do you feel like there is an issue where it comes to them trusting the organization, or speaking honestly ..

Subject:

They feel extremely comfortable with us. Because, you know, they know we are not being judgmental, they know we are not there to stop them from doing whatever they are doing. We want them to have fun, but to have fun in a safe manner. And I think that we, we all agree with them that .. And they also love to be safe.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

So, it is an important thing to them. So we just talk about those issues and then present options that can help them to continue with whatever behavior in a safe way. If,

whenever you go downstairs, you will see on the board, just .. I'll show it to you when we are going out. We recently had a well-attended youth-event. We got around to the youth, who came, and they were all lining up for HIV-testing and counseling instead of

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worrying about the quality of the service provision. We don't want to turn anyone away, and yet a provider needs to see a certain number a day to maintain quality. So you know, we had to call for more support to come and take care of this. So that clearly shows – And they have a brand. It is called the Amoa brand, so they feel that «ah, this is the brand that is going to help me, it is a cool brand, it talks to me, it supports me». So we do a lot of that through our marketing, so that they feel comfortable.

Interviewer:

What are the main challenges in reaching the youth? Subject:

It's, it's mainly .. I mean, there are a number of challenges. But let me start of with the environment. The environment meaning some of the, you know, government policies and what is believed to be correct behavior.

Interviewer: Yeah. Subject:

Youth are supposed to be in school, as far as government is concerned. There is maybe free education, so you go to school. So you can imagine the youth that don't want. And they have a right, they don't have to go to school, you know. They are individuals, they have their reasons. So, reaching those ones is really hard, because they are really under the, you know, under the radar.

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Yeah, sure. Subject:

So, it is so hard to get to them. And that is why you need a peer-based approach. Interviewer:

Because they have their .. They are stubborn in receiving your information? Subject:

Not necessarily, even just to find them. They are hiding from the community. Interviewer:

Ah, I see. Subject:

And, eh, you know, we have such .. The country has such a community-based approach to parenting. If the neighbor's child is not studying, then you have more than five, fifty parents looking out. So you are going to duck, you know. If you're ducking from these community-people, they also end up ducking for us. Because they don't know what our intentions are, so it is very hard to reach them. And if you reach them – especially that group – then you get into another challenge. Some of the services they want .. They may have an unwanted pregnancy. That's why they dropped out of school, and they may want to terminate it. Abortion is illegal in Tanzania.

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Okay. Subject:

So how do they then progress? So, what then do you do to help them? Where will they go? Many times they will turn to .. unorthodox ways of, terrible ways of termination. And you know, since they have an unwanted pregnancy, then probably they are being

exposed to potential risks, such as sexual .. And unprotected sex. And HIV, and then they have to test, they have to access services. Can't support. Then, if the idea is that they are supposed to be in school, they are supposed to abstain, why are they HIV-positive? And you know, that's the environment. That, unfortunately, they are living in, so it becomes very hard to reach them. If they are in school, there are also some

challenges. In school, the curriculum is .. In this age, you are supposed to abstain from sex.

Interviewer:

Because of government policies? Subject:

That's .. what we have. Abstain. As a youth, you must abstain from sex. Then they have their own .. you know, wishes and .. So now, what message are you giving them, even through the education? It may reach some, others will just look at it and say «whatever». And you can't tell in that classroom, who is saying «whatever» and who is accepting. So you are not so sure they are, you know being effective. You can only tell .. It is like a postmortem. After this program, you do an evaluation and you say «Oops! Okay, I missed 50%». And we recently did a study, and the youth that is practicing unsafe sex, I mean, practicing sex .. Many don't use, you know, condoms. The youth that has had many partners .. It clearly shows when you are doing something differently. Either their

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that? And the environment may be very judgmental. So there is always those dilemmas you have to navigate, especially with youth. The general population is a lot easier. Interviewer:

But we are kind of focusing on youth, on condom use I think, but are there any things that you can point out right now, that are ways to get around these issues?

Subject:

I mean, it is always, you know .. Negotiation, advocacy. You know .. at a national level we do a lot of advocacy. And how do you get the advocacy? You get the research, like I am talking about. And you present it to the government, and you sit and say «What do we do? This is reality» The population is 50% youth. If they are not using condoms, what do we do? What you gain from that sometimes is that you can see a shift in policy. Policy takes time, guidelines may move much faster, because you have to go to the parliament and get policies approved .. So, the guidelines then .. That is why the ministry ends up with a youth-desk. You know, to address those special issues concerning youth. That's at a national level. And you know, a lot of identification of champions. Because in anything we do, you will get those ones that are for it and those who are not for it. So we do a lot of work to identify the government officials, who are sympathetic so youth-issues, and use them as champions to help their colleagues to change their views, and make the environment a little bit more conducive for youth to access services and behave the way they want to, and to .. you know, enjoy their full life. So, that is what we do at a national level. And then at a district level – because we have all levels – the district level, what we do is similar to what we do on a

national level, it is still district structures, still a head of a [inaudible] at a district level, so you also do advocacy at that level. But also, that is where service provision starts. Then you have to seek approval for all these services, you have to tail and make a training. Because youth may not be able to go through all this .. You have to adapt their

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youth that are occupied with school among peers, you know. They are not going to do two weeks. So you have to adapt a curriculum to them. And you work with government, it is accepted, it is tested, confirm that it is adequate and you row that out to them. And in the peer-approach. You know, it's .. the peer-approach is perfected, after they are trained and .. Like, there were when we did the IBBS-study on female sex-workers, it was all about – it was still through peers. I meet you, I give you three bands. I tell you that, if you can give these bands to three other people who are your colleagues or friends, and they come for the service, to the center. So, through a phone system, when somebody comes with a code to our center and says «this is the code I was given», then I know it was you, and then I immediately send mobile-money. You know.

Interviewer:

Aaah, okay! Subject:

I immediately send mobile-money so you, that is when you also .. And it is only sent there, because you need the money and you insist that your colleagues go to the center. Interviewer:

That is a really good method, actually, to get people out there, you know. Subject:

It is called M-Pesa. Interviewer:

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What do you estimate is the percentage of the youth that are not attending school that you have reached out to? What would you estimate?

Subject:

What I will do is give you the facts rather than estimates. Interviewer:

Yes. Subject:

Then you look at the documents rather than the top of my head, but that is information that is available. So what we can do is, when, eh, at the end of the meeting, if we have some things that are pending, we can try to find that information.

Interviewer:

Yes. So do you .. distribute condoms? Subject:

Yes. Interviewer:

And you also manufacture them, we heard? Subject:

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No, we don't. We do secondary packaging. Interviewer:

Ah, okay. Subject:

They come in, they are rough form and we do secondary packaging and our branding, because we developed brands to encourage use, you know.

Interviewer:

And I guess people also respect PSI as an organization so .. it is more trustworthy. Subject:

Quality. You know, when they see that, and we do a lot of you know .. promotions and trend, incentives .. So you know, they end up trusting. They know that we will follow through WHO's national system rules, and that they get a quality product.

Interviewer: Do you have special campaigns for condoms or .. to youth?

Subject: Yes, we do. We do. Special campaigns .. that is the Amoa. The

Amoa-campaign. Because we realized when we got the results that we were not reaching the youth. We saw that we needed to do something differently. So we went back to the basic principles of .. Because PSI is known for, you know, being able to reach youth. So we went back and did this marketing, developed a brand for them, so that our special campaign and our output is to see that a number of youth is coming and actually accessing products and services. Services as HIV-testing, products as condoms, family planning – Because we integrate HIV and family-planning. So, and .. emergency contraception. Emergency contraception is legal in Tanzania, but it has .. there is so

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the distribution from national medical .. The MSD, like, national medical stores, down to, maybe a little bit [inaudible], because I think people, individuals feel a little bit stalled. Because I think people feel like the environment .. you know the ones that keep out from the environment, and the others feel like «why are you taking and buying contraception». But it is on the WHO-list, so it is procure. So, luckily enough, we are allowed to do it. To distribute it.

Interviewer:

Is religion ever an issue with .. Subject:

Absolutely. Interviewer:

I mean, do you create different programs for different religious groups or certain minority-cultural groups, or ..

Subject:

Not necessarily, but of course we also have to think about cost, and how cost-effective our interventions are. So, what we do is .. At the advocacy-level – national and district – we categorize those groups. And now, go there. Because that is a cheap way of doing it. A research is done, just .. plug in to a district meeting, plug in to a church meeting. We go where all these different groups go and share our research with them. Ask for a slot. And, one thing that we want to do is to create an enabling environment. But then, the programs that we end up doing, you know .. kind of generic for youth, but not

necessarily. Because maybe – For now it is an expensive danger. Trying to categorize them beyond just youth. Because when you have youth, who are [inaudible] with their

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issues. One Muslim, and they have the issues. It can end up being a very segmented program. Because youth are youth.

Interviewer: Yes, haha. Subject:

At the end of the day, they are youth. They all try .. they all try many times to emulate their parents. But they deeply .. they do not have those connections. So if you help with the parents, the church, advocate at that level, then you create an enabling environment. They don't want to be stigmatized. They want, you know .. their mom to be happy with them.

Interviewer:

We all want that. Subject:

Yeah. Interviewer:

Yeah, I don't know, are there certain .. Well, if you have a group of young people that you are speaking with, and you are aware of different cultural ideologies that they have, I mean, before you are able to the higher, you know, the church or the parents, is there a certain way ..

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Yeah, in the curriculum. In the curriculum, you know, there are sections that, you know, deal with that. I was just upstairs and I was in a session that deals with a more sensitive issue, you know .. the harm reduction approach. But, and that is how we do it. In the training curriculum, we have sessions where, it is called a dilemma, like a session. It is cultural, religious, political. Political sometimes comes in because, who is supporting HIV? Maybe a political party or .. So, you know, you look at all those details and break it down and have a discussion. And many of times, it comes down to that youth are youth. After you go through all the details, you realize the are all different .. They have different backgrounds but on these principles, I mean .. We are common. We have common issues. But it is done in the curriculum. But before, the advocacy helps with the acceptance of the continuous training of these peers. Because, I mean, the government can easily locate them if they are not comfortable with .. I mean they have approved the curriculum, but if it is creating a lot of negative, like, all youth are going back home and saying «Oh, this is cool. But not this», and parents and the gatekeepers can lobby the government to stop. Interviewer: Okay, yeah. Subject: Politicians, especially. Interviewer:

Yeah, I think we were .. Initially, we were planning on looking into these dilemmas specifically and how you get around them. So, I mean, you said that you categorize the groups based on districts. Do you have some kind of data or information that we can look at specifically, to investigate certain groups?

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Subject:

I mean, yeah, through some of the studies we have done, yeah, we can definitely bring down and .. especially that IBBS-study, it is really important. The one that it going to be launched in November 28th. That could really be something that you would love to get a

hold of. Interviewer:

Yes. Subject:

Then, there's also some studies that .. Well, they are our partners in what we do. This other organization that I hope you are going to meet. Restless Development?

Interviewer: Yes! Subject:

You must meet Restless Development. Because they are kind of the champions, if I may say. When you look around at who is really strong at doing youth programing, and is focused. Because PSI – Yes, we also do youth programming but we do everything -, so sometimes if you do all groups, you may use all your effort, and focus on certain groups. But we work with Restless Development, and we sometimes have partnerships. So that, if Restless Development is digging and drilling through these issues, we have, we can scale up. We have the capacity to scale up. So we test the modules, and scale it up to

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specific regions and understand the youth in depth in those regions, and give very good information for us to just quickly advocate for at a national level and scale up. They do a very good job.

Interviewer:

When did PSI start up? Subject:

Here in 1993. (...) As PSI, we will navigate through the hardest of situations. But we won't do anything illegal. We don't. But we will try and advocate for changes in the policy. A government that will prevent access to health services and products.

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2. Interview with Happy Timbuka, Restless Development

Interviewer:

Will you just explain what it is you do? Your job. Subject:

Okay, I am program coordinator in one of the regions, Ruvuma. And my work is to manage the program in this area, especially the implementation of the program on the village level, to insure that education to young people is provided there. So we have assistant program coordinators, we have interns, we have volunteers in the field who work there and provide education to young people. And provision of education is basically based on three areas. First area is on productive health education, the second is on lively hoods and the third is on civic participation. So that is my work.

Interviewer:

Would you say that there are any specific challenges when you deal with youth, in the case of HIV prevention?

Subject:

Yeah. There are a lot of challenges. First of all, as you know we provide issues of sexual productive health education. Most of the young people in rural areas, they have no knowledge on these issues. This is caused by the lack of health centers in the areas, some of them are very far away, so it is not easy for them to access that education. Okay. And also there is peer pressure, as you know, the fellow young people they do bad things so most of the young people who are good, they follow other peers who do bad things. Such as they do unprotected sex, okay, because of some myth that they have in the

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Interviewer:

What could the myths be in the community? Subject:

Ah, those are mostly, for example they say that to have protected sex by using condom does not bring satisfaction to them, okay. So they prefer not to use condoms. And also another challenge is some of them they face, they have this diseases, sexual transmitted diseases, and they are not able to go to health centers to tell them what they sick, so this cause young people to suffer a lot. And this is because some of the health providers are not friendly to youth, so that is causing them not to go to hospitals; they thought that maybe those who are health workers may bring out their secrets. So this cause them not to go there. Also in sexual productive health, also we have a challenge of teenage pregnancies. This is because most of the parents, they prefer to take their children to be married at the early ages, okay, so they face, they got these early pregnancies and also in schools they have the tendency of testing, testing doing sex, so they got these early pregnancies. So these are some of the challenges, which we face here.

Interviewer:

What are some examples that you have seen, where there is a problem and how do you tailor make a program to try and solve a problem?

Subject:

First, so what we do, we train our volunteers and then we place them in the placements, okay, these rural areas where by there is no health centers or they face a lot of teenage pregnancies, so the role of our volunteers is to educate those young people out of school and in school. For in school youth they work along with teachers, okay, by providing sexual health education to teachers and teachers are they guidance to students, so they go to the classes, they teach students how to abstain, how to use condoms and even though the use of condoms are not aloud in students, specially for those primary schools, okay. So they just teach them theoretically, not by practice.

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Out of school youth also we provide education to them, by making sure they are confident to go to hospitals, to meet with the health workers, and get an education and also not be shy when asking for condoms. And also for the case of teenage pregnancy, we provide education to parents, that they don’t have to make their children to be married at [early] ages, especially girls. Because if they get pregnancies that ages, we give them… We give parents the effects of teenage pregnancies to their daughters, so the parents are aware of that and now they take care of them, of their childrens. We have success in some of the areas and some of the areas is not yet to get success, because of the challenges that we face, maybe parents who don’t want to change but we still continue to educate them on this. So this is how we do it on the ground, we just provide education to schools and out of school youth.

Interviewer:

Is it difficult to get the teachers to teach about how to use condoms and how to be safe, when you have the abstinence policy?

Subject:

To primary or to both up to secondary? Interviewer:

Both. Subject:

To both. To teach them on condom use … Interviewer:

Yes, is it difficult to get the teachers in primary school to teach about condom use, when you have to teach that you have to abstain?

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For teachers, you know most of our Tanzanian people are not very much confident to talk in front of their children on the issues of condom use. So teachers will, I take them as parents also. So for them to be confident in to train those students on how to use condoms, they prefer its better to… it is better to teach them to abstain first, so that when they enter secondary or universities it is there where we can teach them how to use condoms, by illustrating to them. So some of the teachers are willing and some of them are not. So we still continue to educate them that they benefit of teaching them how to use condoms to students.

Interviewer:

Can you give us an example of a time, where you were faced with a challenge, where you had to reach out to a community that had different ideas than your program, different ideologies?

Subject:

Okay, we have one of the areas, called Tunduru, where the people who stay there they have very strong prevention of their culture. They use it to train the little kids, especially girls, on how to take care of their husbands when they grow up, okay, so this is their culture. So as Restless Development, when we went there, we have to educate them that this culture is not good, because at the end of the day their children will end up getting pregnancy. So what we do, for the first we go there, we try to make participatory where you implement the program. We want to see what the importance of this culture is to them. So after getting what they… what the importance of this culture is to them, then we come up with our ideas that this culture is not good. Its not good and its not healthy to your young kids. Because at the end of the day, they end up getting pregnancy, which they go to the liver, they get difficulties and some of them die. So some of the parents agree with us and they start to proselytize their fellow parents of that area. And up to now we have succeeded to make sure that young children, specially girls, go to school and are not taking to those cultures where they tend to do [that]… so for us we this as a success, because they have a very very strong culture there in that area.

(30)

So you use people from the area who agree with you to advocate for change? Subject:

Yeah, exactly. Interviewer:

So if you find out that a program that you are using is not effective enough, how do you adjust the program to get the desired results? Do you maybe have an example?

Subject:

If the program is not effective? We have not faced that scenario. But if it happens we know that there is government, which is there to protect us. And we have our policies that allow us to work in this country. That what we provide to the communities is good and the government allow us to do it in different areas. So if we face a challenge like that, or the program is not effective in an area, we seek government support.

Interviewer:

So you work with volunteers. You educate volunteers. Are they volunteers from the area or from similar social groups?

Subject:

We have two kinds of volunteers. The first one we call them national volunteers, these national volunteers come from different part of Tanzania, where we train them and then they go to their villages. This we do normally for the first time when we enter the area. Because when the community sees a new person in their area, they attend to the person, so we use national volunteers for this. First year, and then for the second year of the implementation of the program these volunteers mainly try to educate some of the young people in their area and they pick for us two of them, a girl and a boy, who are good. And then these guys from the area they come to us, we train them and then they go back to the area. So these guys who go back again, we call them community volunteers because

(31)

they come to us so we deal with them. And we do that, having these community volunteers in the area, due to… make sure the program becomes sustainable, because after three years we shift to another area. So those community volunteers can continue to implement the program in our absence.

Interviewer:

Do you think the volunteer program is the most effective of your methods? Subject:

Yeah yeah, it is very effective because these volunteers who go to the field, they are young people and they sit with their fellow peers. So they educate them and it is very easy for peers to peers to educate each other. So in our absence our volunteers play a big role, and some of the young people change their behavior because of those volunteers in their areas.

Interviewer:

What are the challenges of the peer-to-peer program or the community volunteers? Subject:

Community volunteers, the challenges of working with them, you know these community volunteers are born in that area, okay. So they mainly have their other businesses, such as agriculture. So you may have the time of offices and we need them, you may find that they are on the farms. So you have to make sure that your timetable goes with them. If it is farming season you have to allow them to farm. So we find these challenges, and also another challenge is some of them are not much educated, even though they are good, they are not much educated. And they are good in their communities so we don’t have to use them that way. We keep them; we educate them so that they change. So the challenge that we have it is, most of them are not well educated. Especially when you come to issues of civic issues, especially when you deal with prostitution of the nation. Some of them are not aware of it. So you have to educate them on this and after that they go to the community and they do good. They do good. And another challenge is some of them are

(32)

money oriented, that they seek money every time when you work with them, they want money. So it is not easy to work with a person who needs money all the time. But after educating them some of them change. And they know that: Oh, this is volunteer reason. So we go this way.

Interviewer:

How do you find the volunteers and the community volunteers? Subject:

As I said before, in these areas we put our national volunteers who stay there and work with the young people in that area. So our national volunteers find these young people who will become community volunteers. Because our national volunteers they know who is good. They know who can deliver to their fellow young people.

Interviewer:

Is there integration between programs for youth and other programs or programs about HIV and other programs?

Subject:

Yeah, we have integration. As you know, that most of young people they get education on sexual reproductive health without knowing what they will eat later on, it is a big problem. So that’s why we interpret livelihood for these young people to have their small income generating projects, which at the end of the day they make money and they feed their families. So they come and get the education on sexual reproductive health and at the end of the day they got their income-generating project and they produce

vegetables, they produce maize, they sell them and then their stomach is full. So this is what we do.

(33)

We have looked at some studies and we found that in some cases the risk perception of HIV in the youth is too low. How do you raise the risk perception with out being judgmental?

Subject:

For most of young people the risk perception on HIV is very low and what we do, we make sure that this risk perception, most of them is brought by a myth that they have in their community. That maybe HIV and the aids is a syn. So they don’t take it as one day one of them will get that, also they think that HIV and aids are for a certain group of people. So this is some of the myth that they have. So what we do is just that we

educate them, so that they understand that these things are not in their community, they have to know that these things are in their community and some of them live with them, and they have not to discriminate them, they have to be with them. They have to support them. So we provide education in the risk of this area.

Interviewer:

You say that the youth think that there are certain groups that have HIV. Can you give an example of what groups this might be?

Subject:

There are these girls who do sex as commission. So they felt that HIV is for them. And also for the kids who are not abstaining. They think that HIV and aids is for them. They forgot that they can get it though being born, from their mothers. So we have to educate them on this. That HIV is not for that group of people, also in the community it is there. Interviewer:

When you are in villages where the clinics are far away, you provide service? Subject:

Yeah, sure. For these villages, where health centers are very far, we make sure that our volunteers provide condoms to them, provide education to them, so that they have these

(34)

things there or sometimes when they need advice our volunteers are able to sit when them and then advice them on how to deal with that.

Interviewer:

Do you use any technology or smart phones or cell phones to reach out to the youth in the rural areas?

Subject:

Most of the young people in the rural areas they don’t have phones. They don’t access the Internet. So for those who have phones we use to do sms to them, if they have questions they can ask us and so we answer that question. And for other who don’t have cell phones, we print for them messages in flyers and then we distribute to them, so that they can get messages. Or sometimes we have radio programs, which deal with sexual reproductive health and issues on HIV, so in this radio program we insist them to listen at that hour where the session is on air. And if they have a question they can write them down and then when we go to visit, we collect them and educate them on their issues that they write.

Interviewer:

So you go through the school, in the area and then you have the volunteer community teachers for the kids that are in school and the ones who are not in school.

Subject:

(35)

3. Focus-group with Local Men

NOTE: This interviewed was performed with the aid of a translator.

Interviewer:

Ok so, if we can just ask everybodys age, to begin with? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili) Translator: 28 28 30 27 27

and 23 (he came a moment later) Interviewer:

(36)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili) Translator: All Muslims. Interviewer:

Ehm and marital status, your relationship status? Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili) Translator: Okay (Speaking Swahili) Translator:

All single. You have girlfriend? Oh. (Speaking Swahili)

Interviewer:

Ok, so first question is, were you exposed to the practice of abstinence in school? And if so, did it affect your decisions regarding sexual activity? Why and why not?

(37)

Translator:

Okay. (Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Okay, so not in the curriculum at school but in a club at school where they talked about this kind of thing.

(Speaking Swahili)

So they had it in a Catholic school where they had a club where they talked about it. And they talked about abstinence

(Speaking Swahili)

Straight Talk was the name of the club. (Speaking Swahili, asking the other guys)

Okay, so never formally talked about abstinence [from another person in the group]. (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so talking with friends like this in the neighborhood thats how he was introduced to this idea of abstinence [from another person in the group].

(Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so in the religious classes (Speaking Swahili)

Its like the school to learn about the religion, yeah. Ehm, and so they have religious classes where they talk about not having sex.

(Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so in religious classes they’re told not to have sex at all until they get married. Ehm, and then to stay with your wives whether it is up to one or four.

(38)

Haha, ok, no more than four in this form of Islam here in Tanzania. Interviewer:

Okay, so in these religious classes, did they talk about the danger of having unprotected sex? Or were they just like saying no, don’t do it?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Aha, ok.

(Speaking Swahili)

To use condom is a evil, is a sin

Interviewer:

It’s a sin? – okay. Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Don’t do it at all until you are married. I was just wanted to ask if they ask a question, at like would it be told, would they get an answer would they be told not to ask about it (Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, there’s no discussion until you are married.

(39)

So that was in the religious classes? Translator:

Yeah, but the regular curriculum in school they didn’t learn anything about this. (Speaking Swahili)

Aha, okay. So if, once you are married, if you have questions about family planning and want to know how you can maybe plan your family better, they would answer those kind of questions.

Interviewer:

Okay. But aside from the religious schools, were there ehm, like did you talk about it outside with peers or were there organizations and that’s where you could learn about other options them stating.

Translator:

Ehm, I think from what they said before, like yeah... (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, and so even in primary school they had like a one off kind of like session about it, which didn’t go deep but it mentioned.

(Speaking Swahili)

It’s about safe sex… (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so. Interviewer:

(40)

Did you feel conflicted when you heard one thing from ehm the religious organizations and then a different from your primary school just, or did you just find it as information at all ends?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

I think it seems that the religious classes had a stronger impact, yeah, so if you, he says if you didn’t aehm do what they were saying, which is up till you’re married then you’re like going away from your faith.

Interviewer:

Yeah, okay. Eh, okay then, How old were you when you had your first sexual encounter? Subject (The group):

Okay. (Speaking Swahili) 22 20 19 19

(41)

Interviewer:

And ehm, is this like penetrative sex? Or is it…or ehm is there a difference? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

So 15 or 16 to like touch and kiss and…yeah. But then like, sex. (Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, like the ages they say [In the beginning red.] Interviewer:

Okay, and when you have sex do you use condoms every time, or? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

(42)

Translator:

The answer depends on how we are asking it, yeah. Interviewer:

Okay, yeah, is there an example what do you mean how? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Alright, so he uses condoms [one guy]. (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so not every time [another guy]. (Speaking Swahili)

50/50 [another guy]. (Speaking Swahili)

Every single time [another guy]. Interviewer:

(43)

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Okay, so if is a one night stand or someone you’re just meeting when out and have sex you use a condom with her generally speaking, ehm and if eh not, if it is like your girlfriend…

(Speaking Swahili) Yeah, then you don’t use. Interviewer:

Eh, even though you learned in your education kind of that you had the religious education that condom was a sin, why do you do it anyway, kind of?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Interviewer:

Where did you get this from? Where did you learn this that you are supposed to use a condom?

Translator:

(44)

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Here, on the streets, through your friends Interviewer:

Okay, like from word to word? – from person to person?

Subject (The group):

Yeah. Interviewer:

Is there a particular brand that you go for in condoms? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

(45)

Okay, we have different opinions on this one… (Speaking Swahili)

Rough rider – they are imported. Yeah, you can get them in the duka [shop red.] (Speaking Swahili)

Raha condom, Life guard .. Interviewer:

And ehm, are these distributed for free or do you usually buy them yourself? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili) Translator: Buy. We buy them. Salama is free. (Speaking Swahili)

So there is a free kind, the Salama, but if you want… (Speaking Swahili)

Ah, so he has done tests on the Salama once, he doesn’t think they’re actually safe, he thinks there is holes in them, so even though they are free, he won’t use them, yeah. Interviewer:

(46)

Ehm, Do you feel a risk of getting HIV when you have sex or what do you define as risky sexual behaviour?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Really scared that they can get, and I’m specificallytalking about AIDS. (Speaking Swahili)

So not just AIDS, all STD’s. They’re scared. Interviewer:

So with that being said, when you are not using them, you say you not using condoms 50% of the time. Is that because you feel your partner is you know you are completely trust your partner or what is the change?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

(47)

Translator:

More afraid of having a baby than… (Speaking Swahili)

Okay so, he would only have sex without a condom with a woman he really trusts, like is in an relationship with so that even if she got pregnant that fine then they would have a life together or he take care of the baby, whatever

Interviewer:

Do you know about female condoms or other female contraceptives and do you have any feelings about those?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Haven’t even seen them, but heard of them… promotions. (Speaking Swahili)

Lady Prepata, that’s the most common female condom brand here, it is, eh, it is PSI. Interviewer:

(48)

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

So birth control pills, they heard… (Speaking Swahili)

So his girlfriend uses them, yeah. (Speaking Swahili)

So if they are with woman and she uses it, she will say it. (Speaking Swahili)

Aha, so there is a traditional recipe of roots that they use. There’s some Masais walking around selling it and they use the roots to make a tea or something and that’s supposed to prevent pregnancy.

Interviewer:

Ok, so would they prefer to use the tea – the traditional way – or ehm, the modern way – contraception.

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili) The pills

(49)

The modern way. Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, it has a bad taste (the tea ) like it is really bitter. (Speaking Swahili)

It is not like they take the tea every morning, it depends on the doctor, he says [one guy from the group].

Interviewer:

So, if you find out that your partner isn’t using any kind of contraception does it change your intentions at all or?

Translator:

Are we talking about relationships here like? Interviewer:

Well, I was thinking more if it wasn’t someone your trusted because then, you know... Translator:

Okay.

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

(50)

Translator:

So, right now I’m talking about like women they just take home from a bar, ehm, if you don’t have a condom, ehm you don’t do it with her but of course if you are really drunk or something…it happens, yeah. And if she tells them, “oh don’t worry I’m on the pill and I’m safe I know I’m clean”, whatever ehm, they all saying no no no, we won’t believe it, because it is just a girl they met. Yeah.

(Speaking Swahili)

So here in Tanzania there’s a big problem for girls getting pregnant, they can’t continue with their schooling. So and it happens event in second or primary school. So ehm, his girlfriend is in school so she’s using pills so she that she can finish her schooling (Speaking Swahili)

Haha, ok, and he will go to jail for 30 years, if she gets pregnant. (Speaking Swahili)

She’s 18.

(Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, so she’s 18, but it doesn’t matter what age she is, like in the US… (Speaking Swahili)

So, eh, it doesn’t matter what age that girl is here in this situation as long as she is a student registered in school, he would go to jail.

Interviewer:

Wow. So remember the pill.

Translator:

Ehm, but I was leading up to your question which was about changing eh, if you find out that there is no contraception being used [to other interviewer]. So ehm ..

(51)

So it would ruin the trust in a relationship and therefore he wouldn’t be with her again. Interviewer:

And ehm, the birth control pills do you know where they are getting them, is it just from a pharmacy?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Pharmacy. Interviewer:

And do they pay for it themselves? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

(52)

Translator:

So, in poor neighborhoods, like really poor, there’s more openness and acceptance to the pill because it is better to break the law and not get pregnant, yeah.

Interviewer:

Do you guys have oral sex? And if so, do you use protection? And yeah, what are your feelings involved in there?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Aha, so the idea of using any form of protection for oral sex is a new idea, as of right now.

Interviewer:

Ehm, do they think the same risk is involved as having intercourse? Subject (The group):

(53)

Yeah, so there’s some, yeah you can get sick from it, obviously it is something that is talked about.

(Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, so it is not something that is talked a lot about [from another guy]. (Speaking Swahili)

So it is not as common, he believes, to do that kind of sex.

Interviewer:

Do you know about PSI or Restless Development or? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

They’ve heard about PSI, they haven’t heard about Restless Development, but they know what they do [PSI red.].

Interviewer:

Okay, what about Restless Development? Subject (The group):

(54)

Interviewer:

Or Umati?

(Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

Even Restless Development I don’t know them (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, so some feedback from PSI, ehm even the Salam condoms are hard to get because people sell them, people take them for free and resell them to make money and even in the Duka’s here in our own neighbourhood if you ask for them they will, yes. So unless you have have news and tell them they are for free, the might tell you to get lost.

Interviewer:

Okay, so because ehm, I mean it doesn’t sound like you gotten your information from these organizations, it was more peer-to-peer communication. Where do you think that comes from originally, I mean how does it start circulating in the neighborhoods? Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

(55)

(Speaking Swahili)

So just listening to other people, but really like packaging once it was, something for sale in the shops, you can see pictures with packaging, with the instructions.

Interviewer:

So, do you think we can ask about masturbation, I mean just opinions and such?

Translator: Yes.

(Speaking Swahili)

Sometimes you wanna have sex but it is hard to find someone to have sex with… (Speaking Swahili)

So he thinks a lot of people do that when they masturbate, eh can’t find someone they want to have sex with…

(Speaking Swahili)

So before you are also having sex, in puberty, then that’s when you would do it a lot.

Interviewer:

Is it more that you don’t really talk about so much though, I mean it sounds like it is not so accepted by…

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

(56)

Translator:

It is a sin, you shouldn’t do it. (Speaking Swahili)

Okay, eh you’ll have little babies in your hand if you… (Speaking Swahili)

So even to say that you do it even in front of your friends is really difficult and are not really talked about. Even in the “straight talk” club he was in, they didn’t talk about masturbation.

Interviewer:

Is there anything more you guys want to add or any stories you want to share?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

So he’s wondering about ways he can protect himself if he’s doing oral sex…

Eh, (Speaking Swahili)

I suggest that they get tested and this is a problem… (Speaking Swahili)

(57)

So he’s saying that ehm, he would not go get tested because he doesn’t want to know because if he finds out, he is a young man and he’s got AIDS then he could die from a heart pressure tomorrow.

(Speaking Swahili)

So yeah there is a lot of prejudice against people who have AIDS and there is a lot of ignorance so even sharing a plate or a cup with them would be seen as very bad and, yeah.

Interviewer:

Ehm, do they know anybody who have been positively tested for HIV or AIDS? Subject (The group):

(Speaking Swahili)

Lots, tons of people. (Speaking Swahili)

Today they remind each other by teasing each other about wearing condoms and being safe.

(Speaking Swahili)

So if he sees his friend with his girlfriend, he will be like, hey make sure you’re going to use a condom.

(Speaking Swahili)

So he always carries one. (Speaking Swahili)

Some women will carry condoms themselves and others will be looked down upon as prostitutes if they carry them. But I think even in the US girls are afraid of carrying them because it is like asking for it or something.

(58)

Interviewer:

If you wanted to find more information about how to protect yourself against oral sex for instance or if you decided to go and get tested would you know where to go, and would you feel that it was a safe environment for that?

Translator:

(Speaking Swahili)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Translator:

So there is some local organizations, even at the hospital – Ngasa, Tanzanian NGO, American NGO, Started by Americans, runned by Tanzanians, free to get tested. (Speaking Swahili)

So when he went to get tested (one of the guys) the doctor kind of messed with his head, scare him, before giving him his results.

(Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, it is really hard to go get tested. You see a friend leaving in tears it is just like, yeah.

(Speaking Swahili)

What, your research is about condom use or the diseases or? Interviewer:

(59)

Subject (The group): (Speaking Swahili)

Interviewer:

You know like challenges about information getting around…in connection to PSI and Restless Development

(Speaking Swahili)

He is reminding you also that this is Dar Es Salaam – the big city – so even the sex education that they do have is probably a lot more than the people in the rural areas. (Speaking Swahili)

So yeah, even in the region he remembers a story of people who are washing condoms out and reuses them.

(Speaking Swahili)

Even these days it is going on. (Speaking Swahili)

Yeah, a lot of the people that don’t have education in the villages have the big trucks going through and the truck drivers just stopping having sex, spending the night. Interviewer:

(60)

4. Interview with Mary

Subject:

And, I was contacted by T-MARC, so I never worked for PSI.

Interviewer: Okay.

Subject:

So I was contacted by a company called T-MARC, which is the Tanzania Marketing and Communication Company. And they do very similar work to PSI, they do tons of work

with PSI, they have lots of co-contracts – I think they are very much the Tanzanian partner of PSI, very often. And so they had a new brand of condoms coming out, called Dume, and they wanted to promote it, and it was a company called DJ P.A which was the marketing company, who conceived an idea to do it through, like, a dance at a night club. Kind of, like, flash mob style.

Interviewer: Okay, yeah.

(61)

So we just kind of like, pre-arranged with the club but the [inaudible] wouldn't know that we were coming. And then you know, the big band full of twelve guys would show up and come inside, and we had our own little speaker, put on this branded song, and do a condom dance. But it was also not a condom dance, it was a sexy man-dance which sold condoms.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Okay.

Subject:

It was just promotional, just attention-getting kind of cool thing, and then I think they tried to use the song and on the radio they did some. They tried to show the dance on different media and whatnot, so, just a promotional side of it.

Interviewer:

Okay, but you got a – you had a specific more in-depth insight into the organization and their ideologies and .. yeah okay. So that was just with – was it a specific time period that you worked with it or did you do it several times or ..

Subject:

Eh, no, it was just – I mean, I have done other work with T-MARC / PSI, but this was the only one that was directly related to this. Because I worked in the nutrition sector, so I have done some more work with them.

(62)

Okay. All right, well we – I thought that you had worked for them [PSI] maybe more specifically, so I don't know how much you will know about the questions that we have prepared, but we will just give it a go and you can ..

Subject:

We will see if it is useful.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Exactly .. So, when you were working with them, did you find any specific challenges, I mean – or did you hear them speak of any specific challenges, I guess, within the area of HIV-prevention and condom use? I mean – I guess they were trying to make it look like, ah cool with the dance-thing.

Subject:

Yeah, they were definitely getting into the kind of sex-appeal side. I just want to ask, so .. Can this be anonymous? Like – can I be frank about things?

Interviewer:

Yes, of course. We will use a different name.

Subject:

(63)

Yes, absolutely. I mean – that's what we would think make things a lot more interesting, since we got a lot of answers from the people still working for the organizations and .. And we have their names on paper and, yeah. They are representing the organization.

Subject:

Yeah, right. So as long as it is clear that I never actually worked – Like, I never had a contract with PSI.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Subject:

I was outsourced by their local partner [T-MARC]. So, but, yes I – As someone who came in to create something, to help them – you know – sell this product. And, knowing the Tanzanian community the way I do, because I am married into it and I speak the language, and so I thing I have a lot of, like insides-information about what actually goes on on the streets, sometimes. Not everything, but you know, more than someone who is just a foreigner and doesn't engage with the people, right? One of the biggest problems I had is that, like – when we were idea-sharing, coming up with a lot of moves and like, so okay, it is dance as well. I don't know if you guys went to any clubs while you were here?

Interviewer:

(64)

Subject:

Okay, so that is a majority [inaudible] or wealthy Tanzanian crowd at that kind of place.

Interviewer:

Yeah, we kind of got that.

Subject:

So if you go to a, like a club that these guys that we just spent all this time with today would go to .. It is – by American standard – raunchy. People – not like having sex in the club or anything like that, but their type of dance is very sexual anyway. And, girl on girl, guy on guy, all over, on the floor, like whatever, just like very hips and – you know. Just raunchy. But that's the style, it is like how you dance in a Tanzanian club. So I was trying to pull moves from club-moves, things that I have actually seen in clubs. And, eh, the PSI-people were not interested in – Because they represent an organization, and you know. «Well we can't actually show sex and that is mimicking sex ..» And I was like, how do you dance and not mimic sex?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Subject:

I mean, if you use your hips. I'm sorry. Just tell me really basic about it, how do you do it?

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