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Archives and Special Collections

Mansfield Library, University of Montana

Missoula MT 59812-9936

Email:

library.archives@umontana.edu

Telephone: (406) 243-2053

This transcript represents the nearly verbatim record of an unrehearsed interview. Please bear in mind that you are reading the spoken word rather than the written word.

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Oral History Number: 472-009

Interviewee: Jay T. Nelson

Interviewer: Jacob Horton

Date of Interview: November 3, 2019

Project: Veterans Experience Oral History Project

Jacob Horton: All right, I'd like to first start out by thanking you for your time. Can you state your full name for the record?

Jay Nelson: Jay Tyler Nelson.

JH: Jay Tyler Nelson, all right. Are you originally from here in Missoula? JN: I was born in Libby, I grew up in Great Falls, but I bought my house here. JH: How long have you been living here?

JN: In Missoula? Since '06. JH: '06. You like it here?

JN: It's the best town in the state.

JH: Really? Me and my wife kind of like—well, we have, obviously we're from a very small town in Wyoming and it's very, very, very conservative. And everyone from this general area, they call this "Liberalville" and they’re like so, "Oh, you like it there?"

I'm like "Are you serious? I love it." It's perfect. I think it's a perfect mix of everything. JN: It's the little blue spot in a big red state.

JH: I think it's a perfect mix of both, that way you're not getting too much of either. JN: It's still Montana.

JH: Yes, it's amazing. It's a little too cold though. I'm from Hawaii though. I think we were traumatized since we moved here in January, and it was like the cold winter.

JN: Well, this is like the banana belt anyway. Here in the valley it never really gets very cold. JH: We did research before we moved here, and I was like, "Oh the banana belt. That makes it sound like it's not going to be too terrible.” And then...yeah, it was pretty cold. But, I mean, way

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JN: Look at Cut Bank and Browning, I mean, they’ve had snow. It ain't going away until next spring.

JH: It’s so crazy. I think Hawaii changed me. Before, I used to love the cold weather, and after living there I just do not. I do not like it anymore.

All right, so when did you join the army? And were you drafted, or did you enlist?

JN: No, no, I enlisted in '86. So, like February 19, ‘86, I ended up in Fort Benning, Georgia. JH: You started out infantry?

JN: Oh, yeah. JH: Did you like it?

JN: Well...yeah, yeah. You know, my GT score was high enough I could do whatever I wanted, but I figure if I'm going to play army, let's play army. Put me in the infantry.

JH: There were times, especially in basic training, I was like, "Man, that kind of would be fun.” But then as I went out and did my stuff, I was like I'm glad I chose—I mean, well, now I wish I would have gone combat medic because I think that would have been perfect for what I'm trying to get into in the future, but at the time, I was like, "Oh, freaking flying a Black Hawk? That sounds amazing."

JN: Hell yeah.

JH: So, get to fly in Thailand, Korea, and the Philippines all the time— JN: See, that's the kind of shit I should have done but—

JH: It was fun. It was so much fun. So, you were a combat medic afterwards? JN: I was just in the infantry. I wasn't a medic.

JH: Oh, sorry I thought you said you changed your M.O.S. [military occupational specialty]. JN: Oh, I did, but I ended up in a water treatment unit—77 Whiskey.

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JN: Well, it was after I got out. I was in the infantry from '86 to '89. Like June or something. May or June '89, I got out and came home and then ended up joining the Army Reserve in Great Falls. And the only M.O.S. they had available at the time was that water treatment specialist. So, one thing leads to another, you end up there and we did—I think we did one summer camp in Camp Pendleton.

JH: Oh nice. JN: No, it wasn’t.

JH: No, no, I know. [laughs]

JN: Then, old George Bush enacts the Stop-loss program. Here in the Water Treatment Unit we’re fighting a war in a desert, it’s a matter of time.

JH: Stop-loss—that’s something that they were kind of...so, as I was about to get out, I was pretty set. I was like, “Yeah, I’m definitely getting out.” Then that’s when stuff was heating up really bad with Korea at the time. So, my unit was hinting, they were just like, “Don’t...” They were just kind of like [knocks] “Be ready.” They were basically saying don’t get too excited about getting out. I was so frustrated because I was like, “No, I’m getting out. I’m set. I’ve already decided what I want to do.”

Did your military experiences influence your thoughts about war or the military in general? JN: Oh, I don’t know. I think the army just taught me how to play the game. Right?

JH: Did it make you more relaxed? Or did you, did you start...This is kind of an interesting and might be like an insensitive topic, but I was extremely conservative when I first joined the military, and then as my time went in, and I guess maybe it’s just the fact I was stationed in Fort Lewis, Washington, and then Hawaii, I feel like my ideas are more independent now. But I definitely don’t feel as strongly about the stereotypical, “Do this for the country!”

JN: Oh right, that whole blind patriotism bullshit.

JH: Yes, yes, absolutely, that’s exactly perfect. Before I just, now I’m anti-that. Not in a weird way, but I just don’t understand why we’re put on a pedestal in the way we are, especially in the military. Because everyone thinks that we have it—there’s crappy stuff about it, but it’s not as bad as people think in a lot of ways. Especially nowadays. I know back in the day it was different, but now it’s like, we’re too spoiled, it pisses me off. Then people act like we’re suffering.

JN: Well, yeah. I don’t know, it’s this newer generation, and I hear these fuckers talk even in the national Congress, they’re like they’ve never seen America be prosperous. It’s like, what the

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fuck you talking about? How many phones do you got? How many TV’s are in your fucking house? How many cars do you own? What do you mean prosperous? What the fuck man? JH: The idea of today of what’s considered low standard of living it’s—the idea of living in poverty today in definition still means that you have a flatscreen TV and a cell phone. Especially deploying and being in Afghanistan where you just see a different way of life, right? It just kind of changes your mentality of what suffering is, what really bad conditions is.

JN: I think it would do a lot of people good to get out there and see how the rest of the fucking world lives.

JH: Yes. I 100% agree with that. JN: Because we got it good.

JH: Exactly. Now I don’t—my ideas of what matters now, nothing is as important as...Back in, when you’re like, “fancy phones, fancy this. I need this. I need this.” Now I’m like, “No.” My whole idea of life has changed due to being around...Especially, I don’t know how you feel towards like Muslims in general, but before I deployed, I understood the concept of we should just go blow that shit up. But now it’s—I feel embarrassed that I ever thought that getting to know such truly amazing people.

JN: I don’t really have an opinion against any of it. I think all religions are bullshit. But I’ll defend your right to belief whatever the fuck you want. Because that’s where I’m at with it.

JH: I think the world would be a lot better of a place if—

JN: Americans don’t act that way. They think that, “by god, this is a Christian nation,” and it’s not. We have to uphold these moral standards that I don’t necessarily agree with, and look down upon anybody who doesn’t believe that way. It’s like, “Fuck you!”

JH: That’s perfect. Yes. It’s kind of scary how in my mind too, when I first joined the army, I was super Christian, like very, very Christian. I feel like over time now I’m just like, I don’t

understand. I feel almost embarrassed. The idea of how much hatred comes out of Christians in general, in a lot of ways, you’re just like, “What do you believe that makes you so much better than...” It’s scary to me. The true hatred that these people have—

JN: It’s all over religion. It’s all over fucking religion. And it’s bullshit! It’s all just bullshit that somebody made up and said, “This is what’s—” What the fuck, it’s all bullshit! There’s no truth to none of it. But they fight wars over it.

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JN: You can’t change somebody’s opinion. You can kill them but you ain’t going to change their fucking opinion. Fuck, you know, why? It’s just bullshit.

JH: So, how did your service and experiences influence your life?

JN: Well, when I was in Hawaii, which is mostly why I joined the infantry because they guaranteed me three years in Hawaii, and we were what they called a COHORT [cohesion, operational readiness and training] unit, which is an acronym for some bullshit—Cohesive Operational Readiness, something or other. Which basically means that we all went to basic training together, we went to AIT [Advanced Individual Training] together, we went to duty station together. For that entire three years. They tried this on a smaller scale with squad size, platoon size, company size elements. We were the very first battalion-size cohort unit in the army. We got everything first, brand new shit. We were the first unit in the Army to get the Kevlar helmet. Serious! The first one to get the Humvee. The first one to get the M16A2. We got it first. We were hands-down the best unit in the fucking division. Any time we got tested on anything, we fucking smoked it. Any time we were the opposing force to any other unit we just fucking annihilated them.

JH: Because you all trained together, you think it definitely built that cohesiveness? JN: It was really cohesive. It was amazing how much those guys, I mean I’m still Facebook friends with a bunch of them. And we were together for so many years.

JH: You were all basically just family, is that how you felt about them?

JN: Yeah. There weren’t people rotating in and out like a normal army unit, right? We were the same group for the whole time.

Come here. [speaks to dog]

So, that was pretty cool in itself, that we were as good as we were. But then the reality of that is—we had a battalion, or brigade command, change of ceremony, or some shit, and the division general was there and all that bullshit. They told them straight up, “This is your deal. You guys are good, and you know what you get for that, right? You’ll be the first to go.” So, when you’re on QRF [quick reaction force] or whatever in the Pacific theatre, there’s a lot of shit going on. And to our recall or whatever.

JH: Did that affect you all being able to drink or anything like that?

JN: No. But you just have to be able to be in formation in two hours of when the unit gets called. That rotated among all the units there, so, we’d be on QRF 1 for 30 days a row, I think. A month at a time.

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JH: I think we did that in Fort Lewis for a very—like around Christmas time once and nothing ended up happening. They were supposed to do a mock training event that’s supposed to activate 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and it’s like, all of the sudden nothing happens, so we did the training and got ready for it for nothing.

JN: There was one time, we were on QRF 2, I think, and one of our, I think Charlie Company or something was attached to our sister battalion, the Wolfhounds, because they were short personnel or something. Anyway, they got—I don’t know how it all went down—but somehow, some call got mixed up and they were supposed to just call the Charlie Company. I think they were on QRF 2 and we were on 3 or something. Anyway. The one unit got called out, and so they got told they were moving up or some bullshit. Anyway, the communication got all messed up, and they called out our whole battalion, which I’m kind of figuring it’s just a drill. But at the time, I was the ammo guy for the battalion. So, all the ammo that our battalion used went through me first. I had connections with the division ammo office. I go down there and talk to those guys because we’re fucking loading shit up, and they’re like, “I don’t know what to tell you, but I know they just threw out your entire basic load and it’s en route to Wheeler Air Force Base.”

JH: So, the bottom of the gulch? Is that where you all staged? JN: Yes, on Wheeler Air Force Base down on the—

JH: Yep, in the gulch. We have to run there all the fricking time.

JN: It was nuts. So, they drew out the basic load, and that was delivered before they ever straightened out the communication faux pas. They get on TV, you know, and on TV there’s some news that there was some senator or somebody got shot in Panama or some fucking thing. So, it all played into—

JH: So it definitely wasn’t a drill.

JN: It was a weird deal, but we never went anywhere. JH: Did you do any kind of training in other countries at all? JN: From Hawaii?

JH: Yeah.

JN: We went to California.

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JN: No, that was in reserves, we were at Fort Hunter Liggett. It’s a shit hole. We went over there to take on a 7th Infantry Division. We just kicked the shit out of them.

JH: 7th I.D. Well, they were reactivated when I was in Fort Lewis. First, we were like I. Corps and then 7th I.D. stood up right before I moved to Hawaii. So, they stood back up.

JN: We just kicked the shit out of them. But we went to the Big Island a couple times, Panama, Japan, Korea.

JH: How'd you like all the other countries? Did you get to see culture or did you just kind of— JN: Well, a little bit. Japan sucked. Korea’s team spirit bullshit deal anyway. But for young guys it's really cool. Something you've never seen before. Driving a Humvee around foreign

countries’ kind of cool.

JH: Getting to fly around them is just the weirdest thing. Especially in Thailand, like all these temples just everywhere so you're just flying over such beautiful things you get to see. JN: Yeah, how many people get to do that?

JH: Very few, and it's amazing. It's honestly one of the coolest experiences of my life. You said that you stay in contact with a bunch of your friends from back in Hawaii?

JN: Yeah, it's weird because a lot of them stayed in; a lot of them got out. But, in the end, we were still—we spent that three years together. And went through—it sucked. A lot of it sucked. JH: It's kind of interesting, so the unit in Hawaii, right? My unit was almost a year old when I showed up. We were brand new—2158. Obviously, we all got there basically at the same time, so we basically all spent three years together and I'll tell you that was a family. Then when I got to Hawaii, and in and out. I hated—not everyone—but I definitely did not like my time in Hawaii personally when it came to how the military ran there. It was just terrible and chaotic and unorganized. But, in Fort Lewis, it was perfect. Because everyone was new, so we all got to work together, get to know each other. We’re all family.

JN: All started on the same level. We all went to basic training together. The only issue become when it's time for promotion. There's only so many slots available, and everybody's gunning at the same time.

JH: So, it just depends on the best person—

JN: But those guys that got promoted deserve it. They all had all of our respect, and we could be on a first-name basis in the field but there in garrison you still gotta play the goddamn game.

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JH: That's fair. So, you just did the three years in Hawaii, and then you got out from there? Okay.

JN: Got out and came home and then joined the reserves.

JH: What was your favorite thing about Hawaii? Like the island itself on Oahu? JN: It was all cool.

JH: Did you surf at all, go hiking?

JN: Oh, hell no. Hiking. [laughs] Did you go hiking? JH: Dude, yeah, I hiked a lot.

JN: Tell you what, I know the fucking Kahukus and the East Range. We hiked everywhere. They called it "light infantry". Boy, one time we were down there—that was another fucked up deal. It was shortly before I got out, but we were the opposing force for, I think it was the

Wolfhounds again—1st of the 27th, and we were 4th in the 87th. And we just got a new platoon sergeant who—Husleton (?) or something. He’d just come off recruiting duty in Honolulu and shows up and walks right into the best unit in the fucking division. We were like, "Whatever, dude." Anyways, we were supposed to be working at night and harassing these guys, but he comes and gets us and he's like, "You guys need to go out and fight a recon element and harass them today.”

It’s like, "Bullshit man. Why should we?" "Well, because I told you."

"What the hell, what's in it for me?" Right, what do we get out of the deal? "Well you do it just because I told you to."

"Fuck, what's there to stop us from going out there and taking a nap?" I mean, what's in it for us? "What do you want? I want out of the field!" Right? "I'm tired of sleeping under a poncho. I want out of the field." Blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, he goes and talks to 1st Sergeant, comes back, and says, "All right, the 1st Sergeant agreed. If you capture the entire recon element or a 1st Lieutenant or above, you can get out of the field." Whatever. Like there’s even a chance. Anyway, there's four of us: Sergeant Jackson, Bob Daily (?), Dave Garland, and me. We're out there, we're gonna set up this little trip flare on this bridge, and we hear this Humvee coming. So, we jump off the side of the road. This

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Humvee comes down the road, and Dave Garland steps out in front of it, stops it. I go up to the passenger side, Sergeant Jackson goes to the driver's side, Bob Daily's in the back—there's eight guys in the back of this truck covered in [unintelligible]. I walk up there, and the bumper says 1st of the 2nd or some bullshit, like they tore the 7 off, the 27, right? This lieutenant's sitting in there riding TC, and he says, "Well, we're with the 1st of the 2nd Artillery Division. We're looking for some artillery pieces."

We were thinking, ‘What the fuck? Never heard of you guys. What the hell? Shouldn't you be up on top of a hill or something? And why are you wearing crossed rifles on your collar?’ Right? That's what I'm thinking. Artillery? Fuck, you’re in infantry. I looked across the hood and I say, “Hey Jack, I think we found our Lieu-y.”

He says, "Turn of the vehicle please."

Dave Garland goes around the back. Bob Daily's like, "Start passing your weapons up here." They all hand him their rifles except this one corporal, and he's back there and he's like, “I’m not giving you the rifle.”

So, Bob sticks his fucking gun in his face—his M-16—and he said, "I'm not going to pull the trigger, but we'll consider you a casualty."

Dave gets all these rifles, and I got this lieutenant out here on the ground, face down. We got their radio frequencies and maps and the entire recon element and a fucking lieutenant. We get on their radio and call our place and tell them, "We're en route to your location. What's all this shit?" We rolled in there and unloaded all that—stacked those arms and unloaded those guys and walked up to the first sergeant, and I said, "There you go. I'm going to go pack my shit."

They made us work that night, harassed them all night long. We'd have killed them bad too. We had them funneled—because they were coming up the river in rubber boats, and we were allowed to hit them on the river. Once they got off the boats, we had them funneled into this spot, a little small armed fire, chased them down to this road, and the 60 goes, “schlink! schlink!” No, “We got to go. There's like four of us in the whole platoon.” We got out. Anyway,

we harassed them all night long. Then we went in on the fucking food truck in the morning. Got

out of the field for the next four days. What are the odds? There's no way that would happen any other—

JH: Did you ever go into the field at Diillingham, like that area? That’s like that little, small airport on the—what is that area? On the Kaena Point side?

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JH: That’s where we basically lived in the field. Then, they call it Christmas Trees, but I'm trying to remember the area, it's near—do you know where Turtle Bay Resort is? I don't know if—that area right up above it? That's perfect for aviation, kind of like open fields but hills and stuff. It's kind of where we'd camp out at. We'd kind of change between those two. And then we went to Bellows [Air Force Base] too.

JN: Usually the Kahukus or fucking East Range. But luckily, the first couple years there I was driving a Humvee. They put me in that ammo section in the [unintelligible] Platoon for some fucking reason. I don't get it, man. I had to get a waiver when I joined the military because I had too many traffic citations. I get to Hawaii, and they're like, Nelson, you're going to driver’s class."

Okay. Figuring they're going to teach me how to drive? Oh, hell no, 40-hour class, here's your new Humvee. This one's going to be assigned to you. You're going to be part of this ammo section. Okay. Then the guys in charge both ended up getting kicked out for drugs. I was the only guy there basically. So, I get to make my own schedule. Just ammo store and all this bullshit.

JH: Okay so a couple years ago, I know it was on the news but it’s when I was living there, people were in the field at Bellows—it was an infantry unit and then their LT basically

challenged them, was like, "I'll give you $100 for whoever catches and kills a pig.” Did you hear about that?

JN: No.

JH: It made the big news for—because they caught and killed a pig and then somebody told on them to the news station. Then all of the sudden, it was like the PETA, is that what they're called?

JN: Oh, PETA?

JH: Yeah, they’re like, "Animal cruelty!" But there's so many hogs in Bellows area. When we

were in the field there once, one of my soldiers had his assault pack, covered in—because it rained, obviously, super hard—and so he had it covered in a garbage bag and he had it barely on the tree line. The moment he did that, a couple hogs came up and tried to run off with his assault pack. They did it and were trying to sprint off with it. There were so many hogs out there.

JN: I know they shot one—the scout platoon shot one when we were on the Big Island. We were supposed to be—they weren't supposed to be eating anything but [MREs, right? They were testing this new batch of MREs on them, but the mortar platoon killed this pig. This Jeff Jonas snuck his fucking compound bow over there. So, this is the 81-millimeter Mortar Platoon.

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They shoot one of those wild pigs, and they roast it up and eat it. And deliver the fucking head to the scout platoon in the middle of the fucking night. Just to start shit.

JH: I feel like the army used to be so much more fun. Because it seems like now everything's so sensitive for...that would cause so much problems.

Where did you go to the field on Big Island?

JN: Oh, that was up there—that was on Parker Ranch, which is amazing. You realize the largest cattle ranch in the United States is in Hawaii?

JH: Are you serious? JN: Yep.

JH: Jeez. There's some giant ones in Texas. It's kind of crazy, yeah.

JN: You would think right? The biggest one's Parker Ranch in Hawaii on the Big Island. Then we were up on that Pohakuloa Training Area. You know where that’s at?

JH: Yeah, that's what I was trying to remember the name of, yeah. I couldn't even remember what it was called, I just remember PTA. But every time we'd go do gunnery there, we'd always go, "Okay, we'll get day and night portion done; we'll be back tomorrow." Then we'd get there and then the clouds come in, you get stuck for a week. We'd always get socked in there, every freaking time. Then sometimes, we went in there, had the ammo out ready to go, and then we'd obviously got stuck but someone had to stay out. We kept the weapons and the ammo in an aircraft overnight and it was like, I think it was like 18 degrees. So, a couple of us—I had a hammock and I hooked it up in the aircraft, and we all slept in but it was so freaking cold. I

know it was questionable, but I started the APU, the auxiliary power power unit. I was legally

able to, but it's very questionable that I did it. But in the middle of the night I turned the aircraft on so I could get the heater on for a little bit. Yeah, it was so funny. It could get so cold there, snowing all the time.

JN: It snows up there. Did you ever get on top of Mauna Kea?

JH: I wish I did. Now, it's obviously, you've heard all the drama that's going on? JN: Oh, I remember that shit—13,796 feet.

JH: You know the drama that's going on there right now, right? JN: What's that?

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JH: They were trying to build a 30-millimeter telescope, and there's already smaller ones but they were going to start building. I feel like it's the first time in a long time that I've seen all Hawaiians are—

JN: Opposed to it?

JH: Yeah, they're blocking the roads. They've been there for months now, months. JN: There's only one road up there.

JH: Yes, they've been camped out there protesting for months now. It's been like even on the other islands and even on the state side, there's tons of protests.

JN: I think there's six telescopes up there now.

JH: Yes, the 30-millimeter one was supposed to be a big deal and, yeah, there's so much drama because of it.

[pause]

JN: The commanding general threatened to call out the QRF unit one time because our guys were defending some place there on the Big Island against some unit that we were the opposing force. We just kicked their ass. Nobody could take these guys out. The general was like, "I should just call out the QRF unit and see if they can do it." They never did, but…It's good to be good.

JH: Yeah, sometimes because then if you're too good though then you are the one doing all the work.

JN: We were going to go first but…[pauses] Then you get out. Spend three years doing that and learning what the fucking army’s about. Then you get out and come home and join Army

Reserves. My platoon sergeant's ex-Navy guy, squad leader's ex-Air National Guard guy. I mean, all the leadership was from—they didn't have a fucking clue about any of it.

JH: They didn't make you kind of angry towards them, kind of pissed off that they were so unaware?

JN: Not really. I mean, they're just taking advantage of the system. It wasn't a big deal until you end up in a fucking war zone with them.

One of my best friends, Jeremy Preston (?), I met him because went to drill one day and they were like, "You got to go pick this guy up from Fort Harrison in Helena," because he just went through some pre-basic training thing or whatever. The first time I met the guy he's got hair

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halfway down his back, and I'm supposed to be his sponsor or whatever. Show him around there, introduce him to people and shit. He ends up going to basic training, and it wasn't an AIT. It was 77 Whiskey. The only guy we had that actually knew how to do his shit, been to school for it. Then they're trying to segregate us. They didn't want him hanging—I was a bad influence apparently. But you end up in a desert, and he's trying to tell these guys how to do this shit and they won't listen to him because he's just a fucking 82. "Shut up we got this. Shut up!"

JH: "You don't know what you're talking about. You're just training."

JN: "You guys are going to have to do it again. I’m telling you you're doing it wrong." Sure as shit, but what do you do? After they shut you down, you just got to walk away.

JH: How was the transition when you got out of the reserves, just to be a civilian again? JN: Easy.

JH: Were you just ready to be done?

JN: Oh fuck, I quit. Last time, we were in the Black Hills State Park or some shit in South Dakota for summer camp, and we were leaving. Next day, we were going to drive to Sheridan,

Wyoming, and spend the night and then drive home from there or some weird shit. But I was like, "Let's just drive to Billings. Stay in Billings, and the next day we can go."

They won't listen to me, "Nelson, your comment’s been noted." Because I just want to go to Shotgun Willy’s. Titty bar in Billings. Anyway, then we take all the tents down except we leave up one GP medium in case it rains and shit. So, the next day we got to pack up this tent, and my buddy Jeremy's got these guys working, packing up this tent. This lieutenant's telling them to do it a different way, and they're all listening to Jeremy and finally the lieutenant says, "Let's just shut the fuck up!" What do you do right? You just throw your hands in the air and walk away.

He goes over and he stands next to the sergeant major, and he looks at him and says, "Well, if it makes you feel any better, you were right." What the fuck! Don't tell me, tell him! Jesus Christ man!

About noon we blow through Sheridan, Wyoming. They had to repack that tent. They couldn't do it the way the lieutenant wanted it. We blow on through Sheridan, Wyoming en route to Billings, and we spend the night in Billings. So, we can—we got out and stay out all night. Next morning they’re like, "So-and-so smelled alcohol on your bed, so they're going to let Dave Fulton (?) drive that truck." Whatever I don't care. I'm riding this pickup or blazer or whatever with Dave Fulton, and we're driving back from Billings the next morning. We get to Eddy's Corner, he's like, "Man, I'm tired of driving. You want to drive?"

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"All right." We're driving, and we go through Moccasin, Montana—I don't know if you know where that's at. It's on Highway 200. It's a grain elevator, and there's my buddy's jeep. I know it's his. His license plate says "RazNme (?).” That's [John Schmitt]. So, I pull in there. I'm at the tail end of this convoy, fuck it. I pull off, go in there, find John. Because we were just in Desert Storm together. Currently, he's the elected sheriff of Judith Basin County. I stop and they come back. Sergeant Nash, he comes back, he's bitching, "Jesus Christ, you know convoy procedure?" I was like, "Remember, John? I mean, fuck, we can't just drive by him. Jesus Christ man."

Anyway, they're all pissed off. They want my military driver's license. I'm just like, "Fuck it, here you can have it. I'm done. I don't give a shit." We get back to Great Falls, and they're going to make you do busy work because now we’re home too early. My car's got a flat tire, the fucking battery's dead, and I get this paycheck for like $400 for two weeks. It's like, fuck this, I'm done. They're like, "No, you can't quit."

"Fuck, I can."

"We can give you a dishonorable discharge."

"I don't give a shit. If they can override the two honorable discharges I already have, you can fuck off. I'm not coming back." And I never did.

JH: They ended up giving you a dishonorable or just—

JN: Not that I know of. Don't know how they could. My commitment was up, I don't have to, “fuck you guys. I don't owe you shit.” We only had to do three years active. I could have done the rest of it inactive in Reserve. But I'd been honorable discharge from active duty twice. So, fuck the Reserves. Just how all that rolled in, the whole thing was a nightmare, and it’s like, "Fuck this. You guys...Fuck you guys. Done."

JH: I thought it was hilarious any time anybody would come up to me, like a retention NCO, and “Hey, do you want to…”

Just, “No. No.” I really do wish I would have chosen a different MOS, because aviation was a lot of fun, but it's like, ‘what am I going to do now?’ I have aviation life support equipment training, which means I can work for an airliner to work on the oxygen masks or floatation equipment and stuff like that, but I really want to get into the medical field profession so I wish I had just chose combat medic or something. Because then anything would just be a shoo-in and would be so easy but...

JN: Yes, there's probably better things to learn than combat arms. But, fuck, '86, it was

peacetime, man. Let's go play with some cool shit! We've been in perpetual war since the ‘90s, seems like.

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JH: Feels like it. Yes, I was in 4rth grade when 9-11 happened. I just remember a teacher coming into my classroom, kind of taking my teacher off the side and she started crying. I’m like, ‘what happened?’ They didn't say anything to us for the whole day, and then my mom picked me up after school. She got done doing laundry and she told me what happened. It didn't even register, like I didn't understand. It's just so crazy that something like that could happen and how it changed—

JN: It's weird because I listened to that whole thing on the fucking radio. Listening to CNN on the radio. I was working. I think I was still an apprentice. In Great Falls, we're building a Stockman Bank. Dude shows up, he's like, "Where's your radio at man?"

I said, "Well it's up there in the [unintelligible]."

"Well let's go get it. I heard some deal about some airplane ran into the World Trade Center." "Oh, really?" We go turn the fucking radio on. That's all that's on anywhere. CNN. So, we worked listening to that shit on the radio all day. Nobody knew what the fuck was going on. Or when it would end or any of that. So now, everyone's anti-fucking Muslim. For some reason. JH: They make up such a big population of the world. If they really all were bad, there's nothing we could do to survive. We would be wiped off the face of the Earth before we could even finish this sentence. It really makes you sick to—especially when I was downrange, getting to meet the people at the bazaars and talk to them. They truly want to come to America, and they have such a love for this country even though they've never—and I just feel fearful for them coming over here and how people will treat them. I understand, people born in this country, you're American, but what makes people so "American" compared to people that have worked their ass off or done something as dangerous as helping Americans downrange. Them just working with us down there puts them in danger, puts their whole families in danger. They deserve to be here just as much as anybody in my opinion. It's sickening that there's so much hatred towards them.

JN: People are people. Most of them suck. In reality. But there's a bunch of good people, and there's a bunch of shitheads. It ain't worth fighting about, to me.

JH: I feel like that's how my—it's weird how in times...Okay, here's a side question too, do you think people should have to have served in the military to run for presidency? In a way? Or have some kind of experience?

JN: I wouldn't be opposed to making everybody serve in the military for two years. JH: I think that’d be amazing. Especially for people who are in politics because they don't understand the cost of just—

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JN: But the idea of being the commander in chief and having—I don't know. I don't know. Because the same deal, right? Either you served in a war or you served in the peace or you served somewhere where it was all easy or whatever. It's all different. Who's to say which experience is required. But I think it'd be a lot easier to gain the military's respect if you were a vet.

JH: I think it would be good for a lot of people too because it's such a melting pot full of every race, every religion, every sexual preference.

JN: People from all over the fucking place.

JH: In basic training, there was this kid from South Carolina that he, even from the very end of basic, he's like, "I was racist when I got here." And his bunkmate was a black kid, I think his name was Giovan Pensen (?). Yeah, they were bunkmates, and by the end of basic, they were best friends. He’s like, "Dude, how? How have I lived my whole life thinking that?" It's just something that blows my mind is how somebody could think that race has anything to do with who you are. It's crazy. We live in such an interesting world.

JN: I don't know if basic training was what, six weeks or some shit? You know what the difference between basic training and AIT was for me?

JH: What?

JN: They let us walk coming out of the mess hall. JH: You serious? Jeez.

JN: That's the difference. We spent three and a half months down in Fort Benning, doing basic training basically. AIT for the infantry. It’s more of that.

JH: Does not sound fun.

JN: It’s kind of funny though, we had Captain Smith, little black guy who was our captain—

Bravo Company’s captain. Like I say, we did the whole battalion there, but I was with Bravo Company. That little fucker loved to run. God, he loved to run. We’d run, and we’d run. Took us into Columbus, Georgia, and put us in these community fun runs and shit. Fuck, we’d run and run and run. So, we end up in Schofield [Schofield Barracks in Hawaii], and now we got this Captain Rayleene (?) and this new cadre—our leadership was all new to us. Within the first week or two, he decided—I think it was the first week—decides we’re going to, for PT, we’re going to run up the top of Kolekole Pass. All right, let’s go. We’re like, “Fuck, let’s go.” We run. We know how to run, and we can run. Fuck, all them cadre kept falling out, they’d have to go,

(18)

we’ll turn around, we’ll pick them up. We never did make it all the way up to the top because all those other guys couldn’t hang. We’re like, “Fuck, what’s wrong? Come on!”

JH: Yeah, they do a lot of—I'd say like once every quarter, they would do a Kolekole run. Usually it'd be like almost division level, and it's so terrible getting on and off post during that...You have to...So, I live in Kapolei, which so it's only a 20-minute drive with no traffic maybe, but then mornings when there was anything like that, I would have to leave my house at like 3:00 in the morning to make it, to actually...and there would still be traffic to get there by 6:00. It’s only a couple miles, and...ah, it’s the worst. Traffic’s so terrible.

JN: It was fucking nuts. That was the first time that backfired on him. The other time he

backfired it was—how the fuck did that go? I think Thursday morning [unintelligible]. Thursday was payday, I think, so Thursday morning, he come through, pound on your door in the

barracks, “Get up. Piss test, drug test.” So, everybody pisses in a bottle. It’s payday, payday activities. Everybody’s released by 9:00. Friday’s a training holiday. Saturday and Sunday’s the weekend. Monday’s a training holiday. You just go paid, you just been pissed, okay. So, sure enough, Tuesday rolls around, beating on your door, “Get up. Drug test.” So, it was like 70% of the company turned up hot or something on the drug test. What’d they do? Threw out the results and transferred the commander. It's your fault. What the fuck! What do you expect? If that many of your guys are doing drugs, it’s your fault. So, that backfired on him too.

JH: Kind of smart to make them do a piss test and then immediately following, because everyone's gonna think, ‘oh, we're good for at least a month or two.’

JN: Right? Just been paid, got all this time off.

JH: None of my soldiers have ever failed until right when I was on a transition leave. I was in Europe, and my wife and I spent a whole month in Italy and Paris and London and Greece. JN: That would be fun.

JH: Yeah, we spent 34 days in Europe. That’s when we just found out my wife was pregnant too, at the time. Right then. It was like a year ago today, basically, we were in Greece. Yeah, I talked to my platoon sergeant in passing, and one of my soldiers right when I left, he popped hot for cocaine. The thing too is he's the one that I gave the legal control over my car to get it to port, to get it shipped to the mainland right here. I was like, ‘oh shit, just gave this guy my car. Probably got drugs in it.’

JN: Probably full of drugs.

Yeah, I’d do that infantry gig again. I wouldn’t fucking join the reserves. I mean it's just a flawed system, right? How proficient can you be when you trade one fucking week in a month?

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JH: Okay, so here's a question I had, and this is my personal opinion, and it's kind of changed over time just for the sake of how big the Department of Defense—how much money they get yearly. What do you think about the idea of there potentially just only being infantry, so that means there's a lot smaller of an active-duty force but the National Guard Reserves—all these other M.O.s are open and other things—so that way, the amount of money that's pumped into active duty is going to be a lot less. Because at the end of the day if we were to go to war with, say, Russia or Iran, do you think that it would be how proficient certain people are at tasks, or do you think it would be just bodies basically at that point? Because like an aviation it's how much flying time is—is flying a couple thousand hours really make a difference for like a crew chief compared to a couple hundred?

JN: Well, hopefully it doesn't become an attrition thing. We’re not just bodies, but I think that a more proficient, efficient fighting machine is the way to be. If you’re going to do it, you might as well be good at it. The cool part about being in the infantry was we knew. God damn it! You’re fucking job is to support me. Period. The rest of the fucking army is here to support me. That's the deal. So, in the end I mean you could contract a lot of that shit out. Feeding them and policing them and fucking trucking them around and flying—all that shit. But when it comes to the guy with the fucking rifle in his hand, you want a guy that's a good shot or not?

But same deal you know, technology changes, generations change. People are—it’s been 30 years or something since I've been in. I have no idea what it’s like now. I know they’re still running Humvees.

JH: They’re still broken. [pauses]

JN: It was a good time at Fort Hunter. We had two guys running truck. Two. The problem with that, the infantry there, Headquarters Company had what they call support platoons, which I ended up in in that ammo section. Then it ended up being a dumping ground for all the people with profiles. Can’t walk, can’t do this, can’t—we’ll make them a truck driver. Thinking that’s all you got to do is drive a fucking truck. In the end, we’re over there, me and my roommate Paul Pachecko (?) were the only two guys driving a fucking truck, so it was like 22 hours a day. Every man’s got to have a gallon of water a day, but he can only carry half a gallon at a time or

however, so you got to hit everybody twice. They’re broken into fucking squad-size elements all over the place. So, we did it. You gotta fucking do it, right? Fucking sergeant come up to me and say, “Damn it, Nelson, you’re driving too fucking fast!”

I was like, “Well, tell it to Lieutenant—”

“Sergeant [unintelligible], we’re going to be driving at what I consider to be a safe speed. If you can’t keep up, you might as well drop out right now.” That was the end of that guy. But it was, it

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was like fucking Baja. Desert front, over them hills, and power sliding around these turns. It was a good time. All on the government’s dime.

JH: I think it's definitely the best decision I've ever made to go in. Just fundamentally who I am. Who I am and how I've changed. It's amazing what it's done for me.

JN: Forces a guy to grow up a little bit.

JH: Especially when you become an NCO. You go from being a good soldier because you just gotta take care of yourself, but then when you become an NCO then all of a sudden you have to babysit and you have to be creative on how you go about—different people from different walks of life, how you help them learn and grow. It's the coolest experience ever. It's definitely rewired my brain and how I handle everything for good and for bad I guess, because now I can get a temper. [laughs]

JN: It's definitely part of who I am. I mean we weren't in Desert Storm very fucking long. That ended up being a big deal just because the leadership sucked. Jesus! They’d hide in their fucking tent. I got arrested.

JH: You got arrested?

JN: Oh, yeah. We're hanging out in the mess tent because we got the TV for a week. So, we got some VHS tapes, and the fucking TV froze while we’re watching movies. Jeremy sticks his head in the door, stands there for a while, it’s like, “What’s up?”

“Our tent’s blowing down.” So, we go out, pull the fuel truck up there and tie our tent off. Big windstorm coming up. Then the female’s tent was blowing down, and then the female tent for this other unit out of Ohio was blowing, so we helped them. We’re like, “Fuck. Get out of the wind, go smoke a cigarette. Man, we’re...Let’s go to the bunker.” Because when we first got there, we'd built this bunker. We ended up out in the middle this fucking desert, took over this well from this little village, and we had two tents, some sandbags, and stolen bus. Straight up. We put the tents up and we started filling sandbags. We built this bunker right out in front of this tent. We found this steel pipe out there and got this other unit over here to weld it together for us and put up our flagpole—we’re flying a Montana state flag. Some fucking colonel or somebody come by because we were living in it—me and Jeremy and Joey Sinclair (?). They’d come around for stand-to and try to wake us up, we’d just be quiet. They never even come inside. They just, “You guys in there?” We didn’t say a word.

Anyway, they told us we couldn’t live in it because it was dangerous, and we had stayed in that tent. Which is weird in a war zone, but...So, they hand us this tent and say, “Well here, we'll put that up over there by the motor pool.” put us way the fuck over there. Took over the tent that we had, called it the command post because everybody thinks this is the command post. Yeah, so? We’re taking our flagpole with us.

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Anyway, so after this windstorm, go over to that bunker, and it’s literally half gone from people taking the sandbags to hold their fucking tent stakes in the ground and shit. They just literally destroyed our fucking work. So, I was mad. I whip out my buck knife, and I start cutting

sandbags. Fuck, if we’re going to destroy this, let’s destroy it. So, this Lieutenant Stoll somehow, apparently, he seen me, and ‘I had a look in my eye.’ He went in his tent, and he grabbed his M-16, and he was gonna come out and confront me when Lieutenant—what the fuck’s his name? Some other lieutenant—can’t remember his name off-hand—said, “Now, hold on. I’ll take care of this,” and he came out there. He’s like, “So, what are you doing?”

I turned around, “I’m mad.”

He’s like, “You’re acting like a 3rd grader.”

“You’re right.” So, I put my knife away, and I got back and lay down on my...take my boots off, lay down on my little cot there, take a nap. Then I get woken up to six MPs arresting me, handcuff me there, and drag me out of my tent. I’m like, “Hey, hey, can I get my fucking boots on?” I didn’t know what the hell’s going on. Come to find out that lieutenant that came out and told me I was acting—apparently, I threatened him with a knife. He says it never happened, that Lieutenant Stoll him, “You call MPs on that guy.” Anyway, these guys are from the Philippines—or from Guam. This MP unit. So, I hang out with these guys all day playing

dominoes and shit. They can’t find a jail to put me in. So, the brigade commander’s like, “Where do you want to go?”

I said, “Fuck, suppose home’s out of the question.” “Where’s home?”

“Montana.”

Yeah, might as well put me back with my unit. So, I get back to the unit. It’s pretty funny because I walk in the back end...they’re going to make me stay in the command tent because I need to be supervised or whatever. So, I walk in the back end of my tent to get my sleeping bag and shit, and Sergeant Shock’s (?) up there telling all my tent mates, my family, that we gotta move forward, write this off, and blah blah blah. I walk in the back end, and they’re like, “Jay, what’s going on?”

I said, “Fuck, they won’t give me my weapon back.”

And Rowdy says, “I’ve got one here. You want the 60?” So, now I’m standing there with an M-60 in my hands [unintelligible] hanging out of it, looking at Sergeant Shock, telling him...He just fucking walked out.

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Then I gotta go stay in the command tent, and in comes Lieutenant Stoll and the commander asked him what he’s going to do tomorrow. He says, “I think I’ll take that bus, we’ll go to KKMC [King Khalid Military City], then we’ll get a hot breakfast.”

He’s like, “No, you’re going to go to the meeting at brigade and explain to the commander why you had a locked and loaded weapon.” Because my buddy Joey Sinclair said, “That guy came into my tent with a locked and loaded weapon, and I didn’t feel good about it.” Because the rule was, can’t do it unless imminent danger or ordered to do so. At the time, Lieutenant Stoll is the X-O. The commander was gone, he was in charge. All he had to do was say, “I did it.”

What’s he say? “Oh, the MPs told me to lock and load.” Yeah, right. Pretty sure that didn’t happen. So, that’s his story, right? I’m like, that’s bullshit. I don’t believe it. Those guys are pretty cool.

JH: Yeah, they’re so [unintelligible].

JN: The next day they take me to the hospital or whatever. I gotta go see the shrink. He talks to me for a little bit, and he says, “Well, I think your biggest problem is you blame all your

problems on somebody else.”

I said, “Fuck, what do you mean? If it wasn’t for everybody else, I wouldn't have any fucking problems.”

“Oh, we’re done here.” Walks out. So, there you go. Day or two goes by, and I’m just...this eats me up. ‘The MPs told me to lock and load.’ I’m like, no. “Hey, Sergeant Shock, can I take a vehicle? I gotta get a statement from that MP unit?”

“Oh, sure.”

“Can I take Jeremy with?”

“Yeah, sure.” So, we go across the road there where they was. They ain’t there. “They went over there.” So, we go over there. Well, they ain’t there. “They went over there.” So, we’re looking for this fucking MP unit. We end up driving all the way back to Hafar Al Batin. Well, we end up north of there into Kuwait, shelled out border crossing and shit. Vacant. Long enough to piss on it and turn around and drive back. Then Jeremy’s driving, and this road’s like four lanes wide, straight and flat for as far as you can fucking see. Then out of nowhere is this fucking MP standing on the side of the road with a radar gun. He pulls us over and gives him a speeding ticket—in Saudi Arabia, no shit. So, and we’re ready to—we gotta quit, we can’t find these fucking guys. We’re going to have to abort the mission or fucking failure, get some fuel and go home. So, we go to the fuel point, we’re waiting in line to get some fuel, and up next to me pulls this fucking MP unit. MP Humvee. I’m like, “Hey, sir, do you got any idea where such and such MP unit’s at?”

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“Well, that’s my unit, why?”

“Well…” so, I tell him the story. He’s like, “Yeah, I’ll take you right down there.” I walk in their tent, and they’re like, “Nelson, what are you doing?”

“Well, this guy said…”

“Oh, shit, here’s your statement.”

So, we go back, and we’ve been reported missing in action. We’ve been gone for like 10 hours. True story.

JH: So dramatic.

JN: Got a speeding ticket. So, we tell them the whole fucking story, and they’re ready to straighten us up and then, “We got the statement.”

“You got the statement? Let me see the statement.”

So, Lieutenant Stoll, he was pretty close to getting promoted to captain. But we got him a little letter of reprimand in his permanent file making him ineligible for promotion for three fucking years for lying to his commander. Because why? Just ‘cause. Fuck you.

JH: That’s good. No, like, if he did that, he deserved it. That’s awesome.

JN: Well, he’s the guy who called the MPs in the first fucking place. Forced that other lieutenant to call, and it’s all bullshit. Every bit of it was bullshit. It didn’t happen. What a fucking deal. Desert Storm. We stole that bus. It’s the only transportation we had. Found it broke down on the side of the road. Our mechanic fixed it. Water treatment. We were putting out fucking water at 10 parts per million. Chlorine, it’s like pool water. Never drank a drop of it.

When we first got there, fucked up [unintelligible], because we were in Fort Lewis for a while, got activated the day after Thanksgiving, so we came home for Christmas for like five days or something. We're back in...they kept saying, “We're gonna fly. We're gonna fly,” and we never did, never did. Finally, we take off, and we're in England overnight and the bar closed, kicked us out. We’re in this old Air Force barracks, some dude says, “Turn on CNN.” The screen’s all blacked out. They’re bombing Baghdad. We’re en route. So, far it's all just been staging shit. Well, tonight they’re bombing Baghdad. So, tomorrow we fly into Saudi Arabia, and we're coming in on a big C5A, and they’ve got this Humvee are there that's part of this Patriot missile system and they kind of need it at this KKMC where we’re heading, King something or other

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[Khalid] Military City. We're coming in there, and they get a Scud alert, so it's Code Yellow. We get diverted to Riyadh. Then they lift the fucking Scud alert, and so we’re coming back into KKMC. Another Scud, we land at MOPP level 2. You’re on the tarmac, unloading, walking off this fucking plane. Another Scud alert, fuck, MOPP level 4, right there on the fucking tarmac. “We got no place to put you. Just hang out between these buses.” What the fuck? Dark, no clue where you’re at, MOPP level 4. Whoo, boy, here we go! [laughs] So end up in this, what we called Hotel Transient, living in these tents. Nobody really knew—Our fucking unit was split in two different pieces. Nobody knew where we were supposed to be. We had a bus that we stole, but right next to us was this big, huge compound—concertina wire, all these shipping containers. So, every night we’d go over there, me and Jeremy and Joey and John Schmidt (?). We’d go rummage through these fucking things. They got armed guards and shit in there. But we’d find Starburst or M&M—peanut M&Ms. Box of those, got like 48 packs of that, a fucking case of it. We found all kinds of shit, and we’d share it with everybody in our unit. We’d go through it, leave you a little deal on your bunk every night.

One night, the captain, he’s like, “You know…” because he’s right across the tent from me. He said, “You know, if you guys get caught, I don’t know nothing.

“Okay, fair enough. Any special requests?”

“I sure would like some shrimp.” Fuck, whatever dude. So, couple days later, guess what we find? Shrimp in these coffee cans. Dehydrated shrimp. Each can’s good for like 100 people os some fucking thing. Four in a box, grab a couple boxes of them. So, the next morning it’s like, “Here you go, sir, here’s your shrimp.” He’s in there cooking it over the little stove, and Sergeant Shock comes by, he’s like, “Nelson, you need to shave.”

I said, “I don’t gotta shave. C.O. said I didn’t have to.” “Oh, bullshit.”

I said, “Go ask him.”

“Sir, is it true that you told Nelson he didn’t have to shave?” as he’s stuffing shrimp in his mouth.

“No, today, Nelson don’t have to shave. Man, I sure wish I had some cocktail sauce.” It’s like you fuckhead.

About then, in rolls this big mobile mess unit. So, I go find the head guy there, “Hey, you got any cocktail sauce?”

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I said, “I got some shrimp.” So, we do a little trading, right? Fuck! “Here you go, sir.” We had it pretty good.

JH: Sounds like a really good memory.

JN: We had the only flagpole there flying the Montana state flag. So, everybody still thought we were the command tent. They’d always stop there first. We had the only tent with wall-to-wall floor. We had a piece of carpet we stole from the brigade commander. We had three different tables that people...made out of shit that people were going to throw away.

JH: So, you had a good setup by the end of it.

JN: Yeah, we were living good. Six of us in our tent. All the chicks from the other units come over and played cards all the time. Good times. We didn’t have to do shit. What are you going to do? Guard duty. What are you guarding? That’s what the dogs are for. Fucking dogs hated them Bedouins because they’d fucking—dogs are filthy to them. They don’t like dogs. They throw rocks at them and shit, so these dogs don’t like these fucking guys. So, we just keep the dogs around.

JH: That’s smart; that’s awesome.

JN: We had a Humvee stuck in a mud puddle, largest car wash ever. Because after the war, we gotta bring all these vehicles back, but they got to clean them off so they don’t bring—

JH: Inspections and stuff for—

JN: So, we just provide them water for this mile-and-a-half long fucking car wash. It all drained into this big area, sandy, silty area. Figure on seeing how deep we can get her. Buried that Humvee. Took two 5-ton trucks to tow it out. Then we’re cleaning the sand out of it, and we see somebody over on that other hill moving by our pump, fucking around. Jump in that Humvee and head over there. He gets in his little Datsun, takes off. He would have outrun us until he had to cross the desert, then we were on him instantly in that Humvee. Just scared to death. Turns out, he’s just looking for something to drink.

I remember I walked in that tent one time, old Sarj Shock, “How about you, Nelson, you next?” Because we got this barber there. He was part of our unit from Kalispell. He’s a barber, that’s what he does, but anyway, he’s giving haircuts for 5 bucks a pop or some bullshit. I’m like, “Nope, I’m good.”

“Your hair’s getting kind of long.” I said, “Still within regulations.”

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“But what are you going to do when it’s not?” I said, “Well, then maybe I’ll get a haircut.” “We might not have a barber then.”

“Well, then maybe I won’t,” and I left. So what? I walk in there a little while later to mail a letter or some fucking thing, and he’s got the reg out—AR 670-1. He starts reading me that fucking haircut regulation, and I quoted it to him. That little clerk, she’s like, “Jesus Christ, he knows it by heart.” I spent some time in the army; you haven’t.

Now, I'm just a lifetime member of the VFW Post. JH: Where’s that at?

JN: Right downtown there on Main. Right next to Biga Pizza. JH: Oh, okay. I never noticed that.

JN: The Ole Beck Post. JH: What do y'all do there?

JN: Nothing really. They do a bunch of stuff. I haven’t been active at all. They had a meeting here a couple weeks ago just to decide whether or not they’re going to keep that bar because the bar’s losing money. But they decided to keep it. They got some plumbing issues and shit they got to fix, but in the end, that'll be a pretty sweet location. It doesn't get a lot of foot traffic now, but if they...depending on if they’re going to build it now, finally—that convention center there on Orange Street, Front or whatever.

JH: This place seems like it’s going to grow a lot pretty soon.

JN: They’ve been talking about that place, building there, for 15 years or something. But they finally just let this Checota [Nick Checota, Missoula businessman] in, the guy that owns Logjam Presents. Nick Checota. He owns the Wilma and the Top Hat and the Kettlehouse

Amphitheater.

JH: So, everything, basically.

JN: Well, this is what he does and is good at it. He remodeled the Top Hat and the Wilma. The Wilma’s fucking excellent. Excellent venue.

(27)

JH: Those are so nice. I haven’t been to the Wilma yet, but the Top Hat, we just went there one day to eat and I was like, “What is this place? It’s so nice.”

JN: That’s after he remodeled it. It used to be a dive bar. Then the Wilma’s historic, and they just totally redid that and didn’t lose none of the character. Brand new sound system, new ventilation system and shit. That’s the best venue in the state for any show. The Wilma, is the place to be.

JH: Is the Kettlehouse that amphitheater that’s kind of on the outskirts. JN: Bonner.

JH: I think I passed by that one day. That’s a beautiful area. This entire area is just amazing. It’s so crazy.

JN: The Kettlehouse—he started like 22 years ago or something. Right downtown here on Myrtle Street. Then was pretty pivotal in getting some of the legislation changed so they could actually have a taphouse and sell it without having a liquor license. That's when all these breweries started popping up is when they realized that you don’t need a—just get a brewer’s license. Then you can sell 48 ounces per person per day.

JH: Why are there so many casinos here? There’s like attached to everything.

JN: Well, we legalized video gaming back in, I want to say, ‘86 with the idea that the proceeds would be taxed heavily, and the proceeds would go to public education and shit. So, they were tied to the liquor license, and each license allows 10 machines or some fucking thing. So, all the little neighborhood bars went away because they couldn't afford to maintain their license because the value of the license went through the roof because you could have 10 machines. And the machines are there to make the bar money, obviously. And everybody loves to gamble so. I’d outlaw them if it were me.

JH: I think it’s bad—

JN: I’d legalize all gambling, but I’d outlaw video gaming. JH: Really?

JN: You want to play poker, go sit down at a fucking table and play poker. Let’s employ somebody.

(28)

JH: Play keno, go and play live keno. Let somebody call those numbers. Start employing people instead of just letting these fucking machines do it. It’s amazing how many people gamble, I mean, 8:00 in the morning these places get—

JH: It’s just like a taxation on the poor. That’s all it is, really. So, I’m Choctaw, and it's like a tribe out of Oklahoma and stuff. Luckily, they've done really well with their decision-making to where at AT&T Stadium for the Dallas Cowboys there's a Choctaw wing, and then at the American Airlines Center for the Dallas Mavericks, they have Choctaw nights and stuff. So, they're doing really well which is amazing to see how they're marketing and the way they kind of do certain things bring in really good money to help the tribe out. But it sucks to me. That’s all gambling is is people think—they don’t plan for their retirement so then there’s ‘I’m going to rich today.’ All they’re doing is making rich people richer, and it’s scary.

JN: Well, sometimes they win. JH: Very rarely.

JN: You can’t win if you don’t play. But I’d rather just play the fucking sports boards. If you want to gamble, that’s the way to do it. Just get on a board. Odds are the same as everybody else’s. Somebody’s going to win it. The bar ain’t taking none of it. Uncle Sam don’t get none of it. That’s good clean gambling there.

JH: I think right when I turned 18, I went to the Choctaw casino, and I went in with 40 bucks and then I walked out with a couple hundred. I was like, ‘Oh, this is amazing!’ Then I went to

another casino within five minutes, I lost it all, and then I was like, ‘No, I'm never gambling again. I’m not doing this.’

JN: That’s what happens.

JH: Yeah, they always get their money back. I don’t gamble now because I know that it’s just gonna be bad if I get into it.

JN: It'd be nice to win some free money, wouldn’t it? JH: Yeah, it would.

Before I end the recording portion, is there anything else that you want to state for it all? [pauses] All right, well, I appreciate your time. It was really good. I have to do, I think, a report on this as well, but this portion right here will be a part of history for the college. Kind of the concept is if a tree falls in the woods and no one’s there, you don’t hear it, or does anybody hear it. So, it’s interesting to try and get different perspectives. Because all you hear about for veterans is the crazy—the people who write books or that’s the only side of history you hear,

(29)

but it’s good to hear everybody’s voice just to get different perspectives on what their experience was like. Just wanted to say thank you for your time.

JN: Some guys are pretty fucked up. Out of their experiences, you know.

JH: Some of us [unintelligible] anything traumatic. Also, too, how we’re received as well, like when it comes to Vietnam vets. There’s just such animosity—

JN: Well, it was the Vietnam vets that made sure that we didn’t get treated that way.

JH: That’s amazing, and sucks they had to go through what they did in order for it to be better. JN: No, I know. It was amazing. I mean, when we flew back, we were flying out of Saudi Arabia on a commercial jet—big fucking whatever. Another weird story. So, me and my buddy Johnny Schmidt were hanging out, and we’re talking—the stewardess crew got off. We landed in Ireland, and the crew got off duty. But they were out of Minnesota, out of Minneapolis, so they had to fly back with us anyway. Well, we get off the fucking plane and there’s the fucking—the liquor store. So, I get a little pint and drink a couple beers and sneak a bottle back on the plane. Fucking guys walking on the plane with grocery bags with bottles sticking out of them.

JH: Are you serious?

JN: Well, shit, we’d been in a dry country for—

JH: Did you all have general order number one to where you’re like— JN: I’ll protect everything within the limits of post—

JH: No, sorry, like you can’t bring alcohol or drink at all on your deployment cycle.

JN: Well, this wasn’t a deployment. This was a combat zone. Saudi Arabia is, there’s no alcohol in these countries. In fact, if they get caught it’s like—it’s the death penalty. It’s a big deal. You can’t fucking find nothing. Until you get a hold of the Philippines, the Filipinos. So, we’d give them water bottles full of potato whiskey or some shit. You couldn’t tell; it looked like water. Tough to drink, but we didn’t find that until way later. Anyway, fuck it. Nobody’s been drinking for a long time, and we’re flying back. While we’re talking to this one steward—I can remember her name, Victoria or something. She was hot; she was fucking hot. We’re hanging out and bullshitting and, “Man, I wish we could get up front. Look out the window up front or something.”

She’s like, “You know, I might be able to make that happen.” “Really, no way!”

(30)

She said, “Oh, yeah. The pilot’s my day.” “What? No way!”

She goes up, she comes back, she’s like, “All right, come on.” So, me and John get to go up there and hang out with—I mean, you can’t do that shit today. Hanging out in the cockpit there for 20 minutes or something, just bullshitting with these pilots. It’s all on autopilot. Anyway, we land in Bangor, Maine, and there’s like 300 fucking people there. Happy to see you.

JH: Cheering for you.

JN: Right, it’s like we’re heroes and shit. Jesus Christ, man. JH: It’s like, what did we do?

JN: Then there’s a bar. They held us up there for a while because they had some bullshit planned in Fort Lewis, or what’s that Air Force base there?

JH: McChord.

JN: Somewhere. Anyway, so we couldn't get there too early because they had some shit planned. But finally, we land, and me and John are like the last two guys off this plane because we’re talking to this fucking hot stewardess. She plants a big fucking kiss on his cheek, so he had lipstick on his cheek. Anyway, walking off this plane, there’s M-16 laying there, keep going. We get down, there’s seven stars waiting for us. Three-star, had two-star general standing there. Like, looks like you done yourselves...What a shit show.

JH: That’s all it is.

JN: We just wanted to be home. We just wanted to go home, and fuck, just all the parade and ceremony and blah, blah, blah, blah.

JH: Luckily, so on our way out, we had to fly into—I want to say we were New England or something. But yeah, there’s the people that say bye to you and are clapping, and you’re like, ‘why are you…’ It’s so weird. I don’t like it, at all. All it does is make everybody seem too full of themselves. But on our way back, luckily, we didn’t have to really deal with that because we landed in Nova Scotia, Canada, and then flew back to McChord, had to wait a while, and then finally—

JN: See, but this was a whole different time too. I mean, George Bush did that right. He let Schwarzkopf—give him whatever the fuck he wants and let him do it. The Air Force won that fucking war. And Schwarzkopf—I watched all that fucking equipment run across the desert for

(31)

days, non-stop. Because we’d do this big flanking move. All his commanders told him, “We can’t do it. You can’t move that much equipment across that much desert. It can’t be done.”

Schwarzkopf said, “That’s exactly what I want them to think. Now, get busy.”

So, when that ground war started, it was [unintelligible] by the thousands. Because they were tired of getting blown up.

JH: Weren’t most of them, it was basically they were just forced into military service too, right? So, they really had no emotional interest—

JN: Yeah, we were an outstanding army—

JH: “I’m being forced to fight for this dictator that I don’t like.”

JN: “Don’t even like this guy.” It’s not like we were over there stepping on somebody’s toes or we come uninvited or any of that, because we were invited over there. We were asked for our fucking help. We had a mission. And we went over there, and we accomplished the fucking mission, and we came home. Period. And it was done. You can’t tell me what the fucking mission is today. What are we doing? What’s the mission? Because I promise you, the infantry wants to know so they can accomplish it and come home.

JH: Yeah, it’s a never-ending thing now. Other than winning the hearts and minds of the people, which, it’s like how can you do that if you’re actively killing civilians—

JN: Not with the fucking military. That’s not how you do that.

JH: Yeah, it’s a never-ending thing. Because no matter what, you can’t get rid of an extremist section of a religion. How? You don’t.

JN: Yeah, without genocide.

JH: That’s definitely not the answer.

JN: So, what are you going to do? You got to allow those people to do their own fucking thing. JH: Govern themselves. We put them...I think we’re slowly starting to figure that out too. We basically have...we've taught their military, we've tried to set up, help them set up their government. Now, we're taking a step back and being like, ‘we’ll help, kind of.” But I don’t know. It’s not going to end. It’s never going to change.

JN: Well, the whole idea that we think the rest of the fucking world should live up to our standards is so far-fetched that it’s unachievable. “These people want to be…” Maybe they

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