14 - Payments to the ANC

x

, NK©BI

H O L D I N G S

FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION SHEET

- 8 0

11136

TO: ATTENTION;. FAX NO.: PHONE NO.: ANC MR. MENOIMSIMANG 012 347 2144

RE: CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENT

FROM: DA.TE:

TOTAL NO. OF PAGES: SENDER'S TEL.NO.: SENDER'S FAX NO.:

COLIN ISAACS 3 DECEMBER 1999

2

031 306 1433 031 306 2278

• URGENT D FOR REVIEW Q PLEASE COMMENT D PLEASE REPLY • PLEASE RECYCLE

NOTESJCOMMENT5:

Dear Mr. fas

Mr. Schabir Shaik has aste^jjgid fax to you the attached document, which you discussed with him this afterri3b.riV{i>; ,o

Kind regards

Colin Isaacs

Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Ltd, Suits 502 Victoria Maine, 71 Victoria Embankment, Durban, 4000 Tel: (031) 3061433 Fax: (031) 3062278 Reg No: 95/01729/07

Directors: S. Shaik (Executive Chairman), P. Gama (M.D.), C. Isaacs. S. Areff, J. Ngcobo

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ~

f _{IN THE HIGH COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA}

DURBAN AND COAST LOCAL DIVISION LI

DURBAN

THE STATE versus 1. SCHABIR SHAIK

2. NKOBI HOLDINGS (PTY) LTD

3.

NKOBI INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD

4. KOBlFlN (PTY) LTD 5. KOBITECH (PTY) LTD 6. PROCONSULT (PTY) LTD 7. 8. 9. CLEGTON (PTY) LTD

IO. FLORYN INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD

1 I. THINT (PTY) LTD [charges withdrawn]

12. CHARTLEY INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD

PRO CON AFRICA (PTY) LTD

KOBITECH TRANSPORT SYSTEMS (PTY) LTD

BEFORE THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE SQUIRES

ASSESSORS: MR J I JACOBSZ MR A B MOHAMED SC MR W J DOWNER SC, assisted by MR G H PENZHORN SC MR A STEYNBERG M R S MANILALL

MR F VAN ZYL SC [On behalf of accused 1

-

10 & 12, instructed by Reeves Parsee Attorneys]

MR H K NAIDU SC [On behalf of ON BEHALF OF THE STATE:

ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENCE:

accused 1 1, instructed by Fathima Karoida Attorneys] II II V U L U l V l t t I b H I t t N 1 I 8 1 [PAGES 1691

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17361 [Proceedings on 8 November 20041 TRANSCRIBER

CC 2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 8 NOVEMBER 2 0 0 4 APPEARANCES AS BEFORE

STEPHANUS JOHANNES ROELOF VAN DER WALT (under former oath)

SQUIRES J Yes, are w e ready t o resume with M r Van der Walt n o w ?

- 1 6 9 1 - S J R VAN DER WALT

5 MR VAN ZYL Yes, M'Lord, I am. Although "ready" is a strong word.

I can resume, M'Lord. May I proceed? SQUIRES J Yes, please.

CONTINUATION OF CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN ZYL

Mr Van der Walt, at the close of court o n Friday, w e were going 1 0 through the history of M r Shaik's invol ment in Malaysia and also the

start o f his business in this country. As you will recall, I referred you t o P.7 1, a letter that was written t o mail Koovadia b y M r Shaik on 1 6 May 1 9 9 4 concerning the ANC's interest in joint venture business operations in South Africa with the Malaysian companies. You will recall the docum t? I'm not going t o go through it again.

---

That

1 5

up on that, can I ask you t o tur o P.76. This is June the Znd, 1994. It's a letter written b y the late Thomas Nkobi,

who was the Treasurer-General of the ANC. It reads

-

20

Dear Ism a i I

I intend t o be in Kuala Lumpu n Monday, 6 June, subject t o flight confirmation and will be there for about three days. Kindly set up appointments with the

and government offices you 2 5

I

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1692

-

S J R VAN DER WALT This is June 2, 1994.

another matter

. .

."

is not really of any interest t o this Court, but will you agree with me that this shows that in middle June 1994, the ANC, through the hand of Mr Nkobi, were s

government offices in Malaysi r discussions. --- That is correct, M'Lord.

ing up meetings with companies in

5

If

I

can ask you t o turn the page t o P.77. You referred t o Mr Halim Saad in your ev nce with reference to the Point

Development and the Hilton Hotel. Do you recall that?

---

That is 1 0 correct, M'Lord.

Now this is simply a note t o show that July 13, 1994, Mr Shaik was already involved with Mr Saad in business. It reads - it's addressed t o Mr Shaik, it's dated 13 Julv 1994.

"Please be informed that YB Dato Halim Wirsaad of 15 Renong Berhard would like t o meet you as soon as

possible, hopefully by tomorrow, July 14, 1994, to aiscuss rne SA rrojecrs. I snaii appreciare IT you couia kindlv contact me as ~~ soon as nossible _ _ I - - - - - - a t - - - - telenhone - I - - - - -

number ...I' 20

And it's given. Mr Shaik will tell this Court that by middle 1994, he

,

I had already gone quite a long way with Mr Saad pursuing business

I

I

nrn.\;nn+e a l e n hnrn ;n Cnii+h A 4 r i - q \ A / n ' i l m n + +r\ +he+ im e m;mmm+rr I$ I I ~ I U J G S . . L ~ , aiau I I G I G I I I \IIUULII n i i i b a . V V G II Y G L L W LIIQL I I I a I I I I I I U L G 1 1 I car1 ~ S Kyuu iu i u r r i over r n e page, r. I U . I nis is a ierrer aarea

1 0 August 1994 which Mr Nkobi, in his positio Treasurer-General

- L rl-

_

A h l P ._.-_I- I_ rl- - rl-

Y

CC27/2004-RVH/CD - 1 6 9 3

-

S J R VAN DER WALT role as treasurer, but I would like your attention on P.79, it's the second page of this letter. You will recall the earlier letter of June, the 2nd, 1 9 9 4 t o M r up appointments with companies and government , P.76, and he comes back t o

it here and he says, in the second line on P.79, that's page 2 of the

5

letter.

"In June of 1 9 9 4 Mr Schabir Shaik and myself travelled t o Malaysia t o meet with certain key and extremely prominent businessmen in the Malaysian economy.

These meetings were arranged b y our chief 1 0 representative, lsmail Koovadia, w h o is also known t o the

Prime Minister, Mr Mahathir, his deputy . . . I '

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

"The Treasur -General of the NO Party, former

Finance Minister and current nomic adviser t o 1 5 Malaysia and Vietnam(?). We were briefed on the scope

of investments and the intentions of the Mala

invest in South Africa and particularly their willingness t o include our organisation in their investment strategies.

The objective of this inclusive strategy arises from the

20

understanding that our or is indeed in a strategic position t o guide(?) the investments within the context of the RDP. In addition, they have come t o share in our common belief and concern that our organisation needs t o be financially strong and secure and that w e ought t o move away from the past where w e had t o

CC27/2004-RVH/CD S J R VAN DER WALT

I

depend on the international community for various programme

party. Furthermore

operation that they would have been in a position t o e ANC t o a value of 40 million in removing our current and growing bad(?) debt(?). I instructed Mr Shaik t o remain in Malaysia and report to me on his return t o South Africa which he has done. I have requested Mr Shaik, Themba Luxomo, pre

immediately ass 5

inance and Mr Hilmi Daniels, our external

IO

auditor, t o work on the structures required t o put in place t o develop these joint initiatives".

If I can ask you t o turn over t

second line.

page, t o page 3, tha

"I would like t o very briefly comment on the role that lsmail Koovadia has played in facilitating

the organisation has come t o achieve fro what Mr Shaik hopes t o realise in t h investments portfolio from this region".

15

Can

I

then ask you t o turn over the page t o P.81, but before w e 20 proceed with P.81, Mr Shaik will tell the Co h like he said

in his plea explanation, that with Nkobi he looking a t initiatives in Malaysia and they though Mr Nkobi did, that that will be a useful model also for use in South Africa, and the id

set up corpor te structures in which t would have 25 shareholding and interest. If

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

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1695 - S J R VAN DER WALT SQUIRES J Just pause, Mr an Zyl. Is this all a question and you're asking the witness t o confirm this, or

...

[intervention]?

MR VAN ZYL I'm sorry, have asked him for his-c

rd, I'm putting it and actually I should

Yes ...[ intervention] 5

MR VAN ZYL Would you care t o comment on that?

---

ord, no, I cannot comment on that. I

-

I would

-

I can accept it.

SQUIRES J That's what appears on the documents? --- That's correct, M'Lord.

MR VAN ZYL If we go t o P.81, that's a fax t o Mr Shai

for Treasurer-General

...

[indistinc

..

A Stofile. The evidence will be t h a t M r Stofile took over from Thomas Nkobi as the Treasurer-General of the ANC. Do you wish t o comment on that?

---

M'Lord, I think in my evidence-in-chief I mentioned that M r Stofile was the follow

-

followed up in that position.

1 0

15

If I can turn over the page t o P.82. This is a letter from Mr Stofile t o Mr Shaik dated

"Subject: The ANC and Your Position.

I have just returned from a consultative meeting with other officials of the ANC. I fully briefed them on t

report you gave me, both in writing and by way of answering my questions. I also gave my o w n impressions created our several meetings. I insisted t h a t your status within the ANC be defined c

After a brief discussion, the officials decided as follows. The initiative of the late TT Nkobi, for w h h he proposed

2 0

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1696 - S J R VAN DER WALT o t be pursued or authorised. You

as such you have no n the ANC. M y communication with y f the ANC should

come t o an end, including imminent programmes or 5 plans. This Comrade, throws all our plans for Malaysia

and elsewhere completely overboard. I regret this terrible ience and personal embarrassment for me, but so be it. As a disciplined member f the organisation I

have t o stand by this decision. I hope our personal 10

relationship will not be affected by this decision. I have grown t o respect your intellect and skills. Maybe w e will still find a way t o benefit from those. Nothing does not change itself".

And it is signed on behalf of Rev M A Stofile as Treasurer-General of the ANC. Mr Shaik will say t h a t in this letter, viewed in the background and surrounding circumstances, it was made clear t o him that his idea and actually Mr Nkobi's idea, which he supported, that the ANC would become involved in business with them, was thrown

15

door and t h a t was - that's the first line

-

20

"The initiative of the late Mr Nkobi, for which he proposed you t o head, would not be pursued or

I aut ho rised "

.

I That was the death knell t o his idea of giving

in his business and actually n a company w the ANC would 2

NC shareholding

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 6 9 7

-

S J R VAN DER WALT accept that this was then the - t h e last contact or t last dreams that the ANC and the Nkobi group had together.

The last? Sorry, just say again.

---

The last dream that the ANC and the Nkobi group had together.

Well, is that

...

[interv tionl?

---

No, I’m just M’Lord, I‘m

-

5 as it goes in line with the qu that I asked on Friday when - when

this ended and it looks like this was the

-

the time when it was communicated b y the ANC t o Shaik that this is the end of the relationship.

Should I put it that way, the joint dream ended there, but 1 0 Mr Shaik himself, did not end dreaming, he was still playing around

with the idea, as 1’11 show you shortly.

picture, you would have noticed that the letter t o Mr Shai

looked at just now, P.82, was dated 9 May 1995. M r Van der Walt,

are y o u with me?

---

Yes, that’s rrect , M’Lord. 1 5 But just t o complete the

Now if w e can just rn the page t o P.85. You would recognise this letter because you referred t o it in your evidence on page 7 1 of your report. On page 7 1 of your report, Exhibit G, on paragraph

I I O . 1.2 you said the following I

“Visits t o and meetings with Malaysian representatives. 20

W e are in possession of a letter ostensibly from Stofile in his capacity as Treasurer-General of the ANC. The letter

is dated 9 M a v 1995. hilt nnt sinned neither is it nn a

1 - - - - I

- - -

..--

.-

---

-

._.-

I I

, letterhead. It is addressed t o the Executive Chairman,

Dato Halim Wirsaad of Renong Berha

.

In this letter 25 Stofile indicates he would visit Malay

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 6 9 8

-

S J R VAN DER WALT and the purpose of the visit would be t o introduce him

as the Treasurer-General of the ANC, Membe Parliament and Chief Whip for the ANC in the House of National Assembly. He also indicated

b y Shaik regardin 5

South and Southern Africa and wished t

himself therewith. It s also his intention t o fully understand the investm requirement and h o w best he, Stofile, could assist Renong in the region".

Do y o u recall that evidence that you gave?

---

Yes, that's correct. 1 0 Now it's exactly the same letter, P.85 and P.86, except this one

is on a letterhead and is signed b y the Rev Arnold S you wish t o comment on that?

---

No, M'Lor

Now you did say in your investigations it looked t o you as if this

visit did take place because there was that later letter t o the - I think 1 5 ken?

---

Yes, that is correct.

Mr Shaik will say that he had t o accompany the new Treasurer- General t o Malaysia t o introduce him t o the people that he had met there and with whom he was acquainted, including Mr Saad.

---

M'Lord,

I

cannot comment on that. 20

you t o go t o page 8

section of this letter w e have is this section, the first page, have the rest of the letter, but w e will lead

addressed t o Mr Saad again dated 1 De Shaik.

I ence on it. It's a letter

er 1 9 9 4 from Schabir

I

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

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1699

-

S J R VAN DER WALT Dear Dato Halim

We have already land which faces

red the front t w o sections of the ia Road opposite the Holiday Inns. maining t w o sections of the land

next week. In terms 5

of the sale of agreement signed with the t w o land owners, w e are required t o effect t ecessary deposits which would secure said properties.

are the respe ive details of t h

land. I kindly draw your attention t o the column that reflects the deposits required and the respective due dates and if you look at the sale value column it is 14,575 million rand and the deposit required 1,447 million. This morning the sale agreement documents have been faxed t o Pete

1 0

1 5 Now M r Shaik will tell this Co

long before, but during '94, h

that during

-

he had met Mr Saad

s what one can term as r Mr Saad in this country for Renong Berhard, inter alia, in acquiring these properties in Johannesbu --- M'Lord, I cannot

comment on that. 2 0

And he will tell the Court that the real relevance of this, apart from the fact that it shows that he and Mr Saad had a long-standing relationship, was that he made a lo f money out of this transaction and that was part of the capital he had later used t o set up his o w n

companies.

---

M'Lord, on't understand who w e refer t o as who 25 made the money

Is

it

. .

.[intervention]?

~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~~~

=

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1700

-

S J R VAN DER WALT M r Shaik himself ventionl

---

Okay.

...

made an amount of R300 000 on this transaction. SQUIRES J Out of mission I suppose you mean?

MR VAN ZYL Yes, rd. And he used that as part of the capital needed t o set up in business himself in the Nkobi gro

---

M’Lord, I cannot comment on that and

I

have not verified the facts, but

I

would assume that that is true.

SQUIRES J Well, that - h o w far would that have gone in starting up these companies?

---

With R300 000, M‘Lord.

Yes.

---

Not far, M’Lord. What is clear from - and it is evident 1 0 from m y review that

I

conducted in the financial position o f the Nkobi

group of companies, that M r Shaik funded at least one companies t o the tune of R214 000.

Yes.

---

So it is possible that he personally used some of the funds or some of his personal funds t o set up the companies and I would not dispute that. I indicated that there was a period that it was apparent that M r Shaik funded the companies.

MR VAN ZYL Now apart from that tra saction, M r Shaik will also testify that he was responsible for a transaction involving the Plessey

-the Plessey Corporation, Plessey Telumat. --- M’Lord, before w e 20

continue t o the next point, if I a n just add, it is evident from the

-

if one looks at the timing, for example, of this letter which is

I

I

1 December 1994, it appears that we’re r

I

action was realised in t

ssible loop of Shaik’s mind-set, if I can call it that.

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 0 1

-

SQUIRES J Yes, his sphere(?) of operations?

---

Yes. Certainly, yes, M’Lord.

Yes. --- And in that time it also appears that he acted on behalf of the ANC. The ANC, in actual fact, as was proven t o me, which I accepted, in actual fact sent Shaik over t o Malaysia t o go and do a research in order t o go into projects.

5

Yes.

---

The R300 000 then reali d, I would find it strange of Shaik, if the ANC invested if it was R300 000 made

money in the investigatio relationships. Ho

may be some arrangement that was agreed upon that I‘m not aware 1 0 of, where Shaik was allowed t o use the R300 00 made o n this deal.

Yes.

MR VAN ZYL Well, for present purposes, it’s

-

it was sufficient for me t o refer y o o P.82, the letter from M r Stofile in which he was told that the ANC is not going t o go along with his and Nkobi’s idea, which is dated 9 May 1 9 9 5 and Mr Shaik will say that the R300 000, he made as a result of this transaction, was in fact the money he made and which he could use in his endeavours. --- But, M’Lord, I accept that what is put t o me, but the letter of December indicates

1 5

that the sale took place. This was the time 20 before the ANC letter and before the ANC told

,

I of the loop.

I

I

SQUIRES J Yes.

---

Hence

mv

comment that I would find it stranae

,

that the ANC would have allowed him t o use the money personally.

But you can‘t exclude that? --- annot exclude 2 5 that possibility, but what one

I

- r CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 0 2

-

S J R VAN DER WALT

" _{evident, until the letter of May 1 9 9 5 came, is th}

acting as the agent for the ANC with the Malaysians.

Yes.

---

And the projects discussed were projects discussed for and on behalf of the ANC.

MR VAN ZYL And if I can

as always, there's a duplication, P.96 and P.97

is

exactly the same document.

SQUIRES J Yes.

---

M'Lord, I do not have P.96 with me. M y bundle ends on P.90 - excuse me, M'Lord.

n ask you t o go t o P.96

-

M'Lord, and 5

Have you got a spare copy, Mr Van Zyl? 1 0

MR VAN ZYL Yes, M'Lord. has a copy,

M' Lord ?

SQUIRES J P.96 was it? M R V A N ZYL Yes, M'Lord.

SQUIRES J Yes. 15

MR VAN ZYL This is a letter dated 1 0 January 1 9 9 4

...I

intervention] SQUIRES J Mine is 2 November. Page 96. It's headed, "African Nation a I Congress ' I .

MR VAN ZYL No, M'Lord.

SQUIRES J Addressed to Renong Berhard. 2 0

MR VAN ZYL Then I must apologise. SQUIRES J The 97 is 1 0 January '94.

MR VAN ZYL Then w e can deal with P.97, M'Lord. SQUIRES J 97.

MR VAN ZYL That's a Plessey Telumat letterhead. 25 SQUIRES J Yes.

CC27/2004-RVH/CD - 1 7 0 4 - S J R VAN D Plessey Telumat and Time T

transaction between the anies and he was given shares in Plessey Telumat, which he sold for R700 000, and that was another part of capital he used in setting up the Nkobi group. Do

comment on that? --- Yes, M’Lord, I have noted the P

transaction and there are other documents also amongst the files that I’ve had sight of and

I

cannot dispute the fact that money was made and I cannot dispute the fact that that monev could have been used

5

t o set up the Nkobi group of companies.

And the amount of R700 000, does that ring a bell?

---

No, 1 0 M’Lord, I have no done any calculations and I have not verified any of

the facts because the information that I, t o the be remember, did not indicate that the shares that

actual fact taken up by Shaik. I know of attempts t o take up shares, but I cannot remember that the shares were taken up, and if those shares were taken up and sol

,

obviously there w o

profit or loss.

15

M‘Lord, may I just have a word with my

SQUIRES J Yes, certainly.

MR VAN ZYL Thank you, M’Lord. I ais 2 0

Time Telecom, the firm referred to in P.9 fact a company in the Renong Berhard group of companies.

---

M‘Lord, I cannot comment on that.

And then I want t o take you t o page P.88. SQUIRES J

MR VAN ZYL Renong Berhard.

indicated initially in my evidence-in-chief, having had a review of the 10 financial statements that were made available t o myself and that were

available t o myself, it was not a group of companies th

huge amount of capital t o be set up.

I

vaguely remember that Mr Shaik funded the companies t o the tune of approximately R200 000.

SQUIRES J MR VAN ZYL

facsimile from Standard Merchant Bank Limit M r Shaik and Mr Halim Saad, dated 23 Nove

And then if

I

can take you t o page P.88. T

1994, concerning

...[ intervention]

---

25 November, M’Lord. Excuse me 2 0

...[ intervention]

...

excuse me. 25 November, P.90, M’Lord.

P.88, Standard M Do you have it?

---

Thank

25

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

-

1 7 0 6 - S J R VAN DER WALT It's addressed t o Mr Shaik and to Halim Saad with 1994.

reference t o Renong from one Chris Vosloo and comments(?)

-

"Press Announcement for SA Press".

And if you turn over the page, you will see it concern

of a minority interest in the Africon group by Kinta(?) ₅ you see in the heading

-

"Africa n E n g in ee r i n g Intern a t i o n a I Pty) Limited" Africon

-

"Murray and Roberts Supplies and Services"

and

-

10

"Kinta Kelas Public Limite "Standard Merchant Ba

announce that agreement in principle has been reached in terms of which VWL(?) Consult Incorporated . . . ' I

VVL(?)

-

15

' I . . . and Murray and Roberts plies and Services

Limited have agreed t o sell a minority interest in Africon Holdings Incorporated and the Van Wyk and Louw partnership collectively referred t o as the 'African Group' t o Kinta Kelas with effect from 1 January 1995 the disposal. From disposal VWL will continue t o hold the controlling in Afric

20

it's not necessary for us

-

well, perhaps I should just refer you t o paragraph 2 as well

-

~~

CC 2 7 /2004-RVH/C D _{S J R VAN DER WALT}

is an associate company of Renong. In principle, the activity of Kinta Kelas is a provision of project management services

. . ."

etcetera, etcetera, not necessary t o read the rest. Mr Shaik will say

that he was also involved in this transaction, hence the fax sent t o ₅ him by Standard Merchan Bank with the press release on

23 November 1 9 9 4 and Kinta Kelas, as is clear from the content of P.89, was indeed an associated company of the Renong Group of Companies.

---

Yes, M'Lord, I would assume that that is the case. I'm not aware of the extent of the money that was realised, if any. However, my comments as regards the previous t w o transactions that

I was referred to, apply, where again this transaction is in the period

when M r Shaik was ostensibly still in the position acting o n behalf of the ANC on projects.

1 0

And the relevance of all of this, really, M r Van der W _{1 5} support what Mr Shaik will tell this Court and that is that he had a

long-standing business relationship with Mr Saad, well before 1 9 9 5 and 1 9 9 6 and this goes t o show.

---

Yes, M'Lord, I accept that and I actually

-

I cannot recall exactly at which passage in the report I

mentioned that, but the

-

excuse me, M'Lord, on page 7 1 of Exhibit G, ₂₀ I indicated that the relationship between Shaik and the individuals in

Renong and Renong stretches as far back as 6 October 1994, M'Lord, this is when the first time when I noted the documentation reflecting the relationship, but M'Lord will recall that at that point in time I was also not certain in what capacity

behalf of the ANC or on behalf

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D What these documents

that existed before ’94 and even in 1994, is in a relationship that was created by the ANC and t h a t the discussions that took place at that point in time or a least till May 1995, ,that

S J R VAN DER WALT

place against the background of attempting t o 5 ANC, especially also t o redeem, a is noted in that one letter, t o

redeem the overdraft of 40 million rands. I look at it, is that the ANC was at that p

and money t o redeem the overdraft and t h a t is why Mr Shaik was sent overseas t o act on behalf of the

will realise profits for the ANC in orde And as we’ve seen in that lette

1 0

9th of May 1995, that was shot down by Mr Stofile when he became the new Treasurer- General.

---

That is correct, M’Lord, but I indicated that

that a t least projects I was pointed out, are p

period before

-

before the time when Mr Shaik was asked t o break his ties in that position.

Hm-hm. Now Mr Shaik will further say that lthough his idea of a shareholding for the ANC i his group of companies were shot down, he decided t h a t as a staunch supporter of the organisation, he would still make donation t o the movement a

was earmarked by him as e vehicle t o which uld make such contributions. This would also make it easier for him t o account for contributions made t o the ANC. Do you have any comments on that?

--- Excuse me, M’Lord can just have what is put to me, I will acce

1 5

20

,

I

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

And in this regard, if I can draw your attention to P.83 t o be read with P.84. --- M’Lord, if

view, comment on t

setting up of a company forming part of the group structure, t o make

5 donations, I do no see the necessity to set up a company t o make the

donations. If donations were t o be made by the Nkobi group of companies, then those donations would have gone directly t o the ANC as payments to and on behalf of the ANC. A company within the structure is a bid od t o set it up, unless it was the intention t o

provide the ANC with benefits of future projects from the activities of 10

I _{the Nkobi group of companies, earning a dividend} in that group of

companies, because the way I understand is Floryn Investments was a shareholder in the Nkobi group of companies and as a share

it would or may benefit from future dividends and the dividen realised or paid from the visible

companies on projects i

very straightforward business way t

support an organisation such as the ANC, is t o issue a cheque and make the donation.

I

hich they were engaged in. M’Lord, the

20

If I may just correct something that you have - was inadvertently placed in my mouth. I did not say t

Investments were set up for this purpose, he decided t o use Floryn Investments fo

earlier in ’94.

I s purpose. Floryn Investments were already set up

I

25

Well, I thought

-

my note is that he created Flor Investments for

_ _ _ _ ~ _ _

CC27/2004-RVH/CD _{S J R VAN DER WALT}

MR VAN ZYL M'Lord, then it's my mistake. I shouldn't have said that. In this regard, can I refer you t o P.83 and P.84. Both these documents, as you can se

premises of the Nkobi gr

correct, M'Lord. 5

The letter is dated he 3rd

-

P.83 - the 3rd of December 1999 addressed t o Mr Msimang who,

Treasurer-General of the ANC. "Dear Mr Msimang

Mr Schabir Shaik s asked me t o fax t o

attached document which you discussed with him this afternoon. Kind regards, Colin Isaacs".

1 0

And then if you go over to P.84 and if yo

you'll see it followed the one o the other, 36 t o 37.

"Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Limited: Payments t o Floryn 15 investments (Pty) Limited . . . ' I

and you see the amounts of 9 8

-

ag, for 96/97 and then '98 through

'99

-

"

...

and further payments envisaged current year

1 million. Total R2 3 8 6 318" . 20

The importance here is that Mr Shaik will say these were contributions t o the ANC and the heading there

-

"Payments M a t o Floryn Investments (Pty) Limited"

I

,

shows that that was used, that's Floryn, was used as the vehicle

through which he make these contributions and in such a way 25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD - 1711

-

S J R VAN DER WALT

U have any comments on that?

find the document before I

...

[ intervention]

---

_{M'Lord, if I can just a moment t o}

Yes, you've referred t o a document where the million was referred t o as dividends for the year, addressed t o Mr Zweli Mkhize.

I

--- Yes, M'Lord, if I can just find the document it would be helpful. 5 Mr Van der Walt, I have a note here, 0 1 0627, but I'm not sure

that

-

I unfortunately do not have the document. --- Yes, that is correct, M Lord.

If you look a t the date of 0 1 0 6 2 7 and t dates of the amounts

in P.84, that may explain the problem t o you.

--

Yes, M'Lord, it 10 looks like the amounts are similar. On 0 1 0 6 2 7 , 0 1 0 6 2 7 is the letter

that was written on 1 9 May 1 9 9 9 t o Mr Schabir Shaik, Executive Chairman, Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Limited, Suite 502, and then

-

"Contributions t o the ANC Fund.

I wish t o confirm receipt of and thank you for the 15 following contributions made from your group t o the

AN C , K w a Z u I u

-

N a t a I

.

And then -

"Actual disbursements 1,361 million. Year end dividend

1 million". 20

And then

-

"Total contribution 1 9 9 9

-

2,2 million. Yours sincerely".

And then Mr Z Mkhize. M'Lord, this letter is not signed. However, it appears that if there was at least an attempt from Dr Mkhize t o write such a letter and the contents of this letter is confirmed by this

t looks like this is what the schedule refers to, is the

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 1 2 - S J R VAN DER WALT payments already made and then maybe that

-

"Further payments envisaged current year

R

I million" refers t o the dividend.

The important point is, Mr Van der Walt, t h

is - 5

"Payment made t o Flo Investments (Pty) Limited"

and this is sent t o Mr Msimang clearly as contributions t o the ANC for the period '96, '97, '98 and '99, would agree with me that at least on the face of this document it shows that contributions t o the ANC

went through Floryn Investments (Pty) Limited?

---

M'Lord, I won't _{1 0} say that it went through Floryn Inv

confirm these payments with the information a t my disposal and reply t o the question when I've had sufficient time to

-

t o consider the information at my disposal.

Fair enough. --- M'Lord, the mere fact that it's reflected as 15 payments made t o Floryn Investments, does not really mean that

those payments were in actu _{act made t o Floryn Investments. It} could have been made t o other parties.

No, I think, Mr Van der Walt, we're at cross-purposes here. All

I'm trying t o convey t o you is tha you look a t P.84, although the _{2 0} payments might not have gone from Floryn or t o Flory _{a t least they}

were accounted for in Floryn Investments, and that's what I'm putting t o you.

---

M'Lord, no, I don't think it was

Investments. M'Lord will recall t h

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D - 1 7 1 3 - S J R VAN DER WALT

u _Okay.

---

_{This is a schedule that was ostensibly maintained in}

the Nkobi group of companie t o Floryn Inv

Well, put differently, without the financial statements and the

books of Floryn, you’re not really in a position t o say what the correct ₅ position is?

---

Yes, M‘Lord, but I was put with th

these payments were accounted for in Floryn I replied t o that question.

To say you cannot really say yes or no?

SQUIRES J Without looking at the books. 10

MR VAN ZYL Without looking at the books. --- Certainly, yes, M’Lord.

Ja. Then with reference t o 0 1 0 5 5 6 - M’Lord, that’s a document in M.2. We dealt with that on Friday well. 0 1 0556, 5 5 6 in sequence 1. You will recall, Mr Van der Walt, that with reference t o this document, you told the Court at least it looks as if nominee shareholding was not unknown t o the people within the Nkobi group and here M r Zuma’s e is sitting ...[indistinct], , ,

M r Shezi’s opposite an entry nominee document - I’m not going t o

1 5

repeat all that evidence. Do you rec 20

want t o put it straight that at this p

whether this Zuma refers t

M r Zuma, that it is his name I need

...

[ interven

o w accept that it is was written there.

I

SQUIRES J Just pause, Mr Van Zyl. Di _{2 5}

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D SQUIRES J

MR VAN ZYL That might be

in

55, M‘Lord, or 55 -I had the same problem on Friday, my nu

SQUIRES J

-

1 7 1 4 - S J R VAN DER WALT

* _{I don’t have a letter in my}

_...I

_{intervention]}

Yes, I’ve got .a handwritten note which has got

shareholding. 5

MR VAN ZYL That’s correct, M’Lord.

SQUIRES J

Is

t h a t the one

...

[ intervention]?

MR VAN ZYL [Indistinct

-

speaking simultaneously]. SQUIRES es.

MR VAN ZYL

like Shezi there and then Zuma. SQUIRES J So that ...[ intervention] MR VAN ZYL I’m referring t o that SQUIRES J Yes, thank you.

MR VAN ZYL Now with reference t o that, M r Van der Walt, I have t o put it t o you that Mr Shaik will say that Mr Zuma was never a shareholder directly or indirectly in the Nkob roup of companies and t o this day he is not a shareholder directly or indirectly. Do you have

And about one-third down the way, e says ANC looks 1 0

1 5

any comment on that?

---

No, M’Lord.

SQUIRES J Do you accept that seems --- M’Lord, 2 0 when I did my evidence-in-chief, I mad I could not find

any evidence that he was indeed a shareholder. However, I found evidence that he was considered as a shareholder and that in that case the use of nominee shareh

Nkobi group of companies. 25

I

was a term no

during cross- ith a blank signe 2 form from the Education -

~~~~~

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 1 5 - S J R VAN DER WALT

m excuse me, M'Lord, the Workers College, indicating that which have

in effect made the shares in the Workers College a bearer(?) document and, M'Lord, it is generally known that that is a method t o get past the use or the identification of real shareholders. What I did indeed say is that it was considered, it is clear from the time w

was set up, that Mr Zuma was considered t o b

shareholder against the background

of

a possible nominee

s hareholding,

5

Yes. MR VAN ZYL

referring to, you have t o read that with the letter explaining why that CM.42 was signed in blank?

---

Yes, M' rd, I just indicated that a blank CM.42, this form can exist o n its o w n and once the letter i removed, it serves as a bearer document and this is not the first case where I came across the use blank signed CM.42 forms in order t o be used as bearer documents.

SQUIRES J As a matter of interest, may I ask, h o w does the holder of such a document enforce a right t o dividends? --- M'Lord, b y purely register its shareholder

-

its shareholding in e company and/or

Of course, the Workers College, the CM.42 you're 10

b y the existence of an agreement indicating what the shareholding 20 would entail but, M'Lord, this is not - I understand with the new

money laundering(?) legislation, that this not en allowed any more, because shareholders are required t o be identified and recorded in the company records. The use of bearer documents are allowed in

counrries sucn as rax navens, iiKe buernsey Jersey wnere bearer 25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD S J R VAN DER WALT there's a who t s and trust deeds and shareholdings indicating who the nominees are and what the intentions are of those - of the shareholding.

MR VAN ZYL And typically you would also normally get a trust

document with a signed .42 in a typical nominee situation?

---

5 Yes, that is one of the reasons why I believe that the word "nominee

document" was noted he

SQUIRES J Yes.

MR VAN ZYL

please, M r Van der Walt. That has t o do with the shareholding of Mr Gama in Clanwest Invest

similar situation which you referred to?

---

Yes, M'Lord.

Can I ask you t o go t o page 2 in the addendum,

1 0 t s and the fact that there w e had a

This is Exhibit H, page 2, paragraph 2.2. You've said

-

"We have identified an undated security transfer form signed by Gama indicating that 20 ordinary shares were t o be transferred

...

[ indistinct]

...

sha

mentioned. A

...

[indistinct].

. .

f announcement(?) and renunciation and special power of attorney was also identified. The document indicate hat Gama was the registered hold of 20 ordinary shares, but was not the owner of the 20 shares. The document does not identify the owner. The document further i dicated that Gama

1 5

0

I acknowledges that he held the shares solely

behalf of and in trust for the owner and the owner. The do

~

, the order of

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 1 7 - S J R VAN DER WALT

2 0 ordinary shares as nominee f entity

.

That's the trust document w e spoke abo M'Lord, this is a possible document that co

I need t o put it t o you, Mr Van der Walt that Mr Shaik will say 5 that the reason w h y he required Mr Gama t o sign these documents

was a t that stage he wasn't sure whether uld stay with Mr Gama or not and he didn't want t o be held t o ransom by somebody coming into his business and after

doesn't see eye t o eye with him and they hold him t o ransom. That 1 0 was the only reason why he r

and M r Gama is still with him in busine position as a shareholder in Clanwest. Do

make on that?

---

Yes, M'Lord. M'Lord, if th s the case, then one would not need a deed of acknowledgement and renunciation and special power of attorney, just a mere signing of a blank CM.42 would protect Mr Shaik in this instance. This Deed

renunciation d special of a says -

uired these docu

Mr Gama is still in this

15

"Do hereby declare and acknowledge irrevocably that the 20 said shares are not my property, but are the sole property

of ...IV

and then it's blank. M'Lord, this is a docume ..[intervention] SQUIRES J Sorry. Who is that sign by?

---

M'Lord, this is signed b y Gama.

MR VAN ZYL If I can ask you to go t o page 59 in Exhibit _{G. Whilst} you're looking for that, Mr Gama is, of course, on the list of State witnesses and we'll hear from him as and when he is called. Page 59 of Exhibit G. On the second paragraph under "Ordinary Share Capital" you refer t o Gestilac and over the n x t f e w pages you explain the sale of Gestilac's shares for

...

[indistinct].

. .

value

Do you recall that?

---

Yes, M'Lord.

15

I

And you compared that to the fact that in the case of Nkobi Investments, the shares were sold for a premium of some R490 000

above ...[ indistinct]

...

value. --- Yes, M'Lord. 20 If I can take you t o page 62, I think that is the important page.

I I

It is under the schedule on that page. You say

-

I "It is evident from the above

...I

indistinct]

...

shares and

Thomson-CSF Holding by Nkobi Inv tments to Thornson-

CSF France, resulted in a premium ing paid amounting 25

t o

R490000.

This equals a pr ium of

R49000

per

I

CC27/2004-RVH/CD - 1719- S J R VAN DER WALT share. This sale effectively took place four days after

Gestilac SA sold it's 5% shareholding also in Thomson- CSF Holding for an amount t o equal t o par value".

You have told the Court that it was clear t o you that Gestilac seems

a nominee shareholder for some other party?

---

Yes, 5 M'Lord.

And you also told the Court that it was clear f r of the meetings that they were being represented at b y Thomson-CSF?

---

Yes, M'Lord.

If they were indeed a nominee shareholder for Thom 10 would that explain why they were prepared t o sell the shares at

...

[indistinct]

...

value?

---

M'Lord, I do not know and understand the circumstances under which the sale was negotiated. If they were a nominee shareholder on behalf of a third party, then one would expect

that that third party would have expected a higher level of 15 remuneration for the sale of the shares, consi

Nkobi Investments sold the shares at a higher value.

SQUIRES J Yes, but I think this question is irected t o a remark by

-I think I recall you making too that you suspected that Thomson, they

I ring the fact that

might be a nominee shareholder for Thomson.

---

No, M'Lord, that 20

Thomson's representatives represented Gestilac.

Sorry, yes, I think tha ...[ intervention]. --- Yes. I cannot I would find it strange in

y would nominate say that they were representing Thomson

a structure where Thomsons is involved where

l

older of 5 % t o act as a nominee on their behalf. unds a bit strange

CC27l2004- MR VAN ZY was some so the link is G

representatives

S J R VAN DER WALT

let’s look a t it the other way around that there f link between Thomsons and Gestilac?

---

M‘Lord,

older in Thomsons and Thomson’s

...[ intervention]?

---

I do not

know h o w far or whether there are any other links between Thomsons and other individuals.

Or, for that m estilac actually was? --- Yes, Gestilac was, as reflected in the M’Lord, I could not est

body of my report. 10

The amount of R500 000 t h a t were paid for the shares of Nkobi in Thomson-CSF Holdings, t I s a premium of R490000 and the value, what was the

...

[indistinct]

...

value of the shares of 10 000. In your going through the documen ion, do you come across documents that show that t h a t pric as the subject of some negotiations and even diff

one hand and the Nkobi group n the other hand?

---

M‘Lord, I will reply t o this question after I’ve just on

-

as regards the

nce of opinion between Thomson on t h

question whether there is any link between any other party and

Gestilac. 20

SQUIRES J Yes. --- M‘Lord will recall o t w o instances through a

reconstruction of comments through a

-

the construction of events and facts as represented by the _{t h a t point in} time in relation t o remarks made by Shaik a

shareholding in Th

tual shareholding

sons, there were a t least t w o points where I ₂₅ have accoun c in that equation

documents, came across documents which show t o you that there were some serious negotiations and difference of opinion between Thomsons and Nkobi as t o the value t o be placed on these shares?

--- M'Lord, t o the best of my knowledge I recall that it was minuted that the shares would be sold at value.

And that value was t o be arrived

10 M'Lord, 1 cannot

determine the exact wording, but it would have been a confirmed value as regards t o the value of the company a t that

SQUIRES J And that would have by an auditor, or

something?

---

M'Lord,

I

cannot r 15

go t o the documents. The mere fact is there would have been some method used t o determine the value as indicated in Exhibit G.

MR VAN ZYL I'm also in the roblem that I can't put my hand on the document immediately, but I want t o put it t o you in any case that it

was clear from that document that the accountants from both sides ₂₀ would meet and they would work out a fair value for these shares.

Does that correspond with your recollection? --- Yes, M'Lord, it - I cannot recall whether it w a s the account

would have been determined.

,

~~ ~~

c

CC27/2004-RVH/CD - 1722

-

S J R VAN DER WALT Hm-hm. In any case, we'll get the document out and we can look a t it tomorrow. --- Yes.

Then if I can ask your attention for page 6 9 in Exhibit G. If I can ask you t o go t o 0 2 52, that's in sequence 2

-

M

Court file M.3, sequenc 5

SQUIRES J Did you say Court file 5 ? MR VAN ZYL Court file 3, M'Lord. SQUIRES J 3.

MR VAN ZYL M.3, sequenc

SQUIRES J Yes, thank you. 10

MR VAN ZYL Paragraph

-

t h a meeting - minutes of a meeting of shareholders and the dire s of Thomson-CSF Holding on 2 2 November 1 9 9 6 and on page 5 of those minutes,

paragraph 8.2.9, it's minuted that

-

"Mr Shaik stated that the establish n t criteria for 15 company contracts is of major importance and since

-

.

. .

. . . . . - .

Nkobi led the acquisition of UEC they must be kept

annrnach tn ADS tn which M r Mnvnnt an red'^

I I 11- IUU y vu L W g a y , V I I pay= V J V I L A I I I U I L u, LI IC I I I a~ pa1 ayi api I V I I LV

t h a t page, about the 4th line

-

"Shaik then replied t h a t the establishment of criteria is of major importance that since Nkobi had led t h

I of UEC, they had t o be kept informed a t all times t o be

consulted prior t o any approach t o ADS. obi led the acquisition of

~~~~~

CC 2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

Are you with me?

---

Yes, M’Lord.

-

1723

-

J R VAN DER WALT

His Lordship asked you a t the time when you gave this evidence who and what asUEC. D o y recall t h a t ? --- Yes, M’Lord.

And if I remember correctly

-

and help me I’m not, if my

memory is not correct - you said it was a company in the Thomson’s 5 -had t o do with Thomson?

---

Yes, M’Lord, I think t o the best of my

knowledge that was m y reply.

Can I ask you t o go t o Court file M.7. It’s the first page in M.7. It‘s 040435, that’s a combined company register of what w e know as

African Defence Systems. Perhaps if you turn over the page to 10 040436, it will make it clearer. Company name, it’s UEC Projects

Limited and if you go t o the right you’ll see Altech Defence Systems and then African Defence Systems ( ) Limited, formerly Altech, formerly UEC. Would you agr with me that UEC is just another name for what w e now kno s African Defence Systems (Pty) Limited? --- Yes, M’Lord. M’Lord will recall when I

question, I noted that I will come back t o M’Lord on that point and when I dealt with ADS in the later section in my report, it became evident what UEC was and I acce

ADS. 20

SQUIRES J Yes, thank you.

MR VAN ZYL And the second poi remarks on page 6 9

1 5

EC

is

the forme

s a result of your

, “It is unclear h o w Nkobi led the acquisition of UEC”. Mr Shaik will tell the Court that he introd

t o ADS, as we now know it, then Altech Defence

1

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 2 4 - S J R VAN DER WALT of the Altech group and he introduced them not only t o ADS, but also t o their capabilities in the defence field. He specifically introduced Pierre Moynot t r Bill Venter and he convinced Thomson-CS

ticularly Mr Gomez, t o invest in ADS. In this regard ca

you t o go to, in Court file M.3, 020004, page 4 in the sequence 2 5 series. This is a letter dated 6 August 1995 from Mr Moynot t o

Mr Shaik.

"I would like t o confirm hereb the content of our previous discussions relating t o co-operation between

country where w e could decide together t o co-operate further. The following has been discussed and agreed in principle pending the final approval by Thomson-CSF's general management . . . I '

and can I then ask you t o turn the page t o the paragraph marked 5 of the next

-

the second page of the letter.

existing South African companies such as but not limited

t o Altech/UEC, Plessey, Reutech, ATE

..."

etcetera

-

which was already initiated by Thomson-CSF in the past

I

CC27/2004-RVH/CD letter refers t o that, w

group, and this was discussed further there. There is another document somewhere in these files and 1‘11 try and get it, where both of them signed that

-

the understanding that had -been reached in

Paris. If I can take you o t o 0 3 0 0 1 8 ...[ intervention].

---

M’Lord, 5 should I comment on that?

Yes, please do.

---

Ye M‘Lord, I would find it strange t o still at the very early stages of the

-

of Thomsons and

-

or the Thomson/Nkobi relationship and that Thom n’s background is in the

arms industry. The companies mentioned there, Altech, ATE, 1 0 Reutech, Plessey t o a less tent, the companies t h a t one would

want t o see that Thomsons would be interested in finding investments or performing joint projects with.

If I can ask you then

...

[ intervention]

SQUIRES J But had there not

-

Mr Sh t already have a meeting 15 in Paris in July of this year?

---

Yes, M’Lord, there was on the 4 t h

of June 1996, there wa meeting where, on the 4th of June 1996, Schabir Shaik in actual fact had a meeting with Peter Watt of Altron.

~~~

c

CC27/2004-RVH/CD S J R VAN DER

I making is that there were some movements towards ADS a t that point

in time, albeit from Shaik or the Thomson's side.

was in July, was it not, of 1995, that there was a meeting with Mr Perrier, I think and one or t w o others, in Paris? Or

have I got the year wrong?

---

Of the possible investment? 5 No, it was just the possible joint ventures, I think

...[ intervention]? --- Yes, M'Lord. I can check the date, M'Lord, and

if necessary

...

[ intervention]

Well, its quite possible that at that meeting, if I am correct in

my date, that Mr Shaik may have mentioned Altech and the expertise 1 0 that they possessed?

---

Yes, M'Lord, I can find the exhibit and refer

M'Lord t o the

...

[ intervention]

Yes, if you could confirm that I'd be grateful.

---

Yes.

MR VAN ZYL If I can ask you t o just stay with 0 2 0 0 0 5 and take you

t o the last parag ph in this letter by Mr Moynot. 1 5 "Should you agree that the a ve is a true reflection of

our discussions, I would suggest that w e go together t o Thomson-CSF's Paris head office t o finalise our agreement and from there t o Malaysia. As per out

today's teleph e conversation, w e could fly t o Paris on 20 Tuesday night".

It's clear that they went t o Paris after this letter on the 6th of August 1 9 9 5 ?

---

Yes, M'Lord.

I

I _{And if I can take you one step further} in the 3-series, in Court

file M.4. On 03001 8 and 03001 9, if I can take you over the page t o 2 5 0 3 0 0 1 9, paragrap

Now that da

itself, it was written on the 2 9 t h of August 1995. SQUIRES J Which date is clearly wrong, Mr Va M R V A N ZYL M'L , in paragraph 5 he refers

of August is clearly wrong. If you look a t the letter

of August at 1 1 .OO pm. 1 0

SQUIRES J Yes?

MR VAN ZYL Pierre has secure 5 t h of August at 1 1 .OO pm. SQUIRES J Oh, I see.

MR VAN ZYL If you look at the date of letter, it's written on the 29th of August 1995, that referred t o the 5 t h of September

...

[ intervention]

SQUIRES J Yes.

MR VAN ZYL

...

1 9 9 5 at 1 1 .OO pm.

with Bill Venter for the

1 5

"I am not sure whether I am going t o 20

meeting".

Now if you recall, the letter we've just looked at, which was the 6th of August 1995, th

and Mr Shaik is reporting t o A

Moynot has secured a eting with Bill 2 5

September at 1 1 .OO pm and you

were on their way t o

I

l

I.

CC27/2004-RVH/CD 6 the minutes of the v

between Thomson-CSF and actually Th South African company and Altech for t

Would you agree with that? --- Yes, Just one other atter of inter

purposes, is also paragraph 1 . You will recall that about a half an hour ago w e spoke about the Plessey shares and the R700000

r Shaik made out of that deal. Now her

"Plessey Corp shares, see copy of 's(?) latest letter

of share offer. This does not exclude Halim(?) playing his _{1 0} part. See letter t o Halim. However, with regard t o the

firm offer of Nkobi

...

[ indistinc

.

in the process with Dr Botha(?), Jea as promised me additional shares t o bring the amount of 6 million, representing exactly 1 %".

SQUIRES J n Zyl, where are you re 1 5

MR VAN ZYL M'Lord, I'm reading from 0 3 0 0 1 29th of August, the first paragraph marked "1 ' I .

MR VAN ZYL That's again the reference t o the Plessey shares and

one can see in August 1995, that was still a talking point between 20 them. Can I ask you t o

...

[ intervention] --- Yes, M'Lord.

~

I

...

can I ask from here t o 020003.

---

M'Lord, also

I l

a paragraph at

-

I

ma

0 3 0 0 1 9, when it was there stated

-

I

I

"As per telecon today, the meeting with JZ is confirmed September 1995 . . . ' I

CC27 /2004-RVH/CD which I was referred t o Pierre and Bill Ve

S J R VAN DER WALT

on the same date.

trying t o say that the meeting with Pierre and Bill Venter and the meeting with JZ in 6 has any relevance or an

t o do with each o t ‘Lord, it looks like the meeting with J Z was be

-

was a t 8 o’clock that morning and the one with Bill Venter was 11 o‘clock that morning.

5

Yes, and the letter is addressed t o Jean-Marc Pizano.

---

That is correct, M’Lord.

Yes. And just reading on the face of what is contained in this I O

letter, it would seem that he is confirming with Mr Pizano, the meeting with JZ for next week, the 5th of September. Would you agree with that? --- That is correct, M’Lord.

Ja. Can I ask you t o go t o 02003. That is the letter under cover which the 6th of August fax was sent t o Mr Shaik w e looked at earlier. Are you with me? --- That is correct, M’Lord.

1 5

~

And in this 02003 dated also 6 August I 995, Mr Moynot writes t o Mr Shaik in the second paragraph

-

“I now need your agreement t o go t o Paris together with

me. I intend t o organise a meeting with o 20

and CEO, Alain Gomez and I may not change it a t the last minute. Besides any problem of mutual respect, it is a question of c dibility. Indeed,

time t h a t I have announced your coming t o Paris. The

(Pty).

---

M’Lord, I accept that this may have been the introductory meetings or this is where introductory meetings took place. However, as I indicated in reply in cross-examination earlier on today, the actual negotiations and the actual transaction and agreement t o take over ADS, took place some years thereafter and if this letter is dated the 6th of August 1995, the heads of agreement of restructuring or the agreement of sale of the remaining 5 0 % in ADS, signed with Thomson’s France took place on the 16th of February 1999, hence my comments, M’Lord. There are a lot of moments and there are a lot of events that took place in between this period and I accept that

10

15

the introduction took place as a result of Shaik, if that is what the _{2 0} evidence will be.

If

I

then can ask you t o o t o page 72

-

M’Lord and I must apologise, I have a nagging fe

witness, but just t o make doubly

I

~

If there’s any doubt, 25

MR VAN ZYL On page 72 of Exhibit G with reference to this letter,

03001 0, you point out t h a t it's printed with the same font style as the previous letter, being the one without the headi _{which wasn't}

signed by the Rev Stofile, I've handed you the copy with the 1 0

!

I letterhead an with the signatur a f e w minutes ago. The point you

were making is that this was obviously typed at the same office most probably by the same ypist, the one u

name of Hamida Makhtar and the other under the name of the

Rev Arnold Stofile and b 15

Holdings. Do you recall t

--

Yes, M'Lord, the letter

and 9 addressed t o the E Chairman, Dato Halim Wirsaad, is similar and this is in the name of Rev Arnold Stofile and then the letter addressed t o Jacob Zuma, 0 3 0 0 1

0 3 0 0 1 1 - this is from a certain Hamida Makh again a similar letter and this one is address

...

[intervention]

SQUIRES J You mean similar t y s, M'Lord. And then the next one, which is from Nkobi Holdings on 0 3 0 0 1 2, is also the same,

M'Lord. So it theref 25

Nkobi Holdings, work

I , - 20 r. It appears t o be t o Mr Jacob Zuma

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

-

1 7 3 2 - S J R VAN DER WALT know the person by the name of Hamida Makhtar, bu

person also typed a letter on behalf of Hamid

Yes. --- And, M‘Lord, there are other examples as well. Mi3 VAN ZYL I need t o put t o you that

-

if I haven’t done so already

-that the letter nder the name of Hamid 5

executive director of the Landmarks(?) group of companies, also a Malaysian group of companies and she was in Durban and Mr Shaik made his facilities available t

typed, the letter sitting at 03

M’Lord,

I

cannot exclude the possibility.

0 0 1 1. --- That is possible,

10 The letter 0 3 0 0 1 2 through t o 0 3 0 0 1 4signed b y M r Shaik on an

Nkobi Holdings letterhead is, of cours is letter. It was typed b y his typiste, the typiste who typed the letter for Hamida Makhtar. And the letter t o the

-

b y the Rev Arnold Stofile was also typed b y the same typiste in M r Shaik’s office and that was w h the expected trip that he would have had with the ne

introduce him, as w e covered earlie

after it was typed, was in fact faxed t o M r Stofile t o sign and it was signed and returned t o Mr S

letterhead and the signature of Mr Stofile at P.85 and P.86. That is what M r Shaik will say why these 3 letters were typed with the same

---

Yes,

1 5

20

I font and furthermore, they were typed b y the same typiste.

I

M‘Lord, that confirmed my point that it person.

And my

-

but more importantly, there‘s nothing sinister

5 And then you also referred the Cour to, on page

73

of your

report, under the heading

-

"Correspondence with Defence in Malaysia". Also o n the middle of page 73

-

"Also on 8 August 1995, Shaik wrote t o the Deputy Minister of Defence in Malaysia. In this letter he thanked the Minister for having met with him. He also indicated in the letter that Nkobi purchased majority shares in South Africa companies involved in the following defence related technologies, aeronautical engineering, the control and designs(?) t o fit into the Migs, Rooi Valk attack helicopter, missile guiding technologies

. . ."

1 0

1 5

etcetera, and you make the point that the contents of the letter did not accurately reflect the group's current position because, you said, they didn't have majority shar in South African companies involved in related technolog

-

in the defence related technologies. I think that was the point your were making? --- Yes, that's correct, M'Lord.

20

I

M r Shaik will say that a t the time he was trying, attempting t o sell defence related products t o the Malaysians, p

Valk attack helic by Denel a t the t

2 5 err which was developed in this country, I think,

CC27/2004-RVH/CD To some extent, yes, M'L

And he will say that a number of South Africa

' the Malaysian companies, but unfortunately didn't have much success

5

with the Rooi Valk attack helicopter.

letter t o the Deputy Minister of Defence in Malaysia it does not explain my point where it is clear from t h indicated in this letter that

-

t's the background t o t

letter where he

"Nkobi Holdings chased majority shares in South African companies involved in the following defence re I at ed tech no Io g i e s ' I .

Hm-hm?

---

does not say t h a t Nkobi Holdings

1 0

was successful in introducing Malaysian corn

African companies to the Malaysians. This indicates t h a t Nkobi Holdings purchased majority shares. I do not, unless I misunderstand the question, it does not indicate t o me that what is put t o me, that t h a t relates t o the acquisition of shares or p

those companies.

15

No, I understand where this Court, "Look at this man.

he's the first black majority ...[ indistinct].

.

.

the defence industry and he's purchased Africa, that's a lie", tha

M Lord.

2

writes t o the Malaysians and says

hat you're saying? --- That is correct,

,

25 Yes. I'm saying