02johndegrove.pdf

(1)

Sustainable

Development

Kevin

Bryant

and Robert

Inerfeld

John

DeGrove

directs the Florida Atlantic University/Florida International University Joint Center for Environmental

and Urban

Problems.

He

is

a

member

of

the

Governor

's

Commission

for

a

SustainableSouth

Florida

and

chairs the

Commission

's Committee on

Urban

Form, Intergovernmental Coordination,

and

Governance.

He

wrote

The

New

Frontier for

Land

Policy:Planning

and

Growth

Management

intheStates, publishedin 1992 by theLincolnInstitutefor

Land

Policy. The authors interviewed

him

by

phone

afterhe lecturedat the

Department of

City

and

RegionalPlanning's

1997

Sustainable

Development

LectureSeries.

CarolinaPlanning(CP):

What

willsoutheastFlorida

look

like

twenty

years

from

now

if current

development

trendscontinue?

John

DeGrove

(JD): Ifcurrenttrends continue and

we

can't alter the fundamental urban development pattern,

we

willhave sprawledallthe

way

totheedge andintotheEverglades;

we

willhaveapredominant low-density suburban development pattern; and

we

won't havesustainablecommunitiesorasustainable environment. We'llall bebitterlydisappointed, and

we

won't havea sustainable

economy.

That's if

we

don'tchangethings inthedirectionofasustainable southFlorida.

CP:

Can

you

quantifythe costsofthissprawl?

JD:

The

cost quantificationisalittledifficult,because alotoftheseareenvironmental valuesand it'shard to puta dollar figureon

what

it

means

to be able to restoreandsustainthe Evergladesecosystem.

What

values

do

you

put

on

havinga sustainablepopulation ofvarious kinds ofbirds as opposed to not having

them?

On

theotherhand,the costofsprawlpatterns of development is

much

easier toaddress.

We

have hard data

now

that

show

urban sprawl costs very substantially

more

toprovidethe infrastructurethan

with

more

compact development

patterns.

So

in

Kevin

Bryant

and

RobertInerfeld are candidatesfor

Master

's degrees in Regional

Planning

at

UNC-ChapelHiU.

dollars and cents, given the projected

growth

that we're goingto have, you're talkingabout hundreds ofmillions

of

dollarsinaddedinfrastructurecosts.I

don'thavea precise

number;

one ofthethings

we've

done

isask

Bob

Burchell

(who

doesthiskindofthing out ofRutgers) to look at the statistical impacts of sprawl in South Florida.

We

want

to quantify the differenceinthe trendplan,between doingthingsthe

way

we're doingit

now,

andthe

more compact

urban

form

approach

—

the sustainable

communities

approach

—

thatwe'retryingto

move

to.

CP:

What

kind of development do

you

envisionfor theEastward Ho! corridor?

JD:

We're

doing

some

very creative

work

there

already (around the TriRail stations),

and

we're hopingthat willbeone oftheshowcasesof Eastward Ho!,butwe'realsolookingtogetallthestakeholders

inthegame, includingexisting neighborhoods. It's

very dangeroustorunaround doingthiskindofthing withoutinvolvingthepeople

who

are alreadythere.

You

go around talking about high density or even moderatedensity,people automatically say"Oh,lord,

we

don't

want

that aroundus;

we

don't

want

those old ugly highrises" orwhatevervisionthey have.

You

havetogive

them

avisionofmoderate-density, well-designed environment, and

you

havetoget

them

on board.

You

have

to understand, this is a corridor

where

a lot

of

things are happening already; we're trying toinfluencewhat'shappening,to

make

ithave

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VOLUME

22

NUMBER

2

part ofthis population increase so that

we

don't continuetospread outtoward andeventuallyintothe Everglades.

CP:

What

would

ittaketo getdeveloperstodo

more

redevelopment and infill?

What

kind of incentives dothey need?

JD: Well,

some

ofthem,

who

are developing the corridor

now,

say

"We

don'tneedanyincentivesfrom

you government

guys.Justtakeofftheshacklesthat

you

now

putonusthat

make

ithardforustodevelop and redevelop." These shackles include rigid and inflexible

land-development

regulations that

discouragemixed-usestuff,thatdiscourage creative development that

we'd

like to see going into this corridor. . .just

outmoded

codes.

CP:

Have

those started tochange at all?

JD: Yes,some. That'sgoingtobea bigfocusofthe

Department

of

Community

Affairs (the state land

planning agency) as

we

go through the process of upgradinglocalcomprehensiveplans.They'reputting

much

more

focus on trying to

work

with local governments and to give special grants to clean up oldcodes,

make

them

flexible,

make

mixed

useeasy instead ofhard.

We

now make

it harder, it's fairto

EASTWARD

HO!,

WESTWARD

WHOA!

The

Southeast Floridaregion,

which

includes

Palm

Beach, Broward, and

Dade

counties, isandwill remain one ofFlorida's fastest growing regions. With a projected population growth of

50%

overthe next20years,the naturalbeautyandqualityoflifethathasattracted

most

ofSouthFlorida'sresidentsis

in seriousjeopardy.

Most

notably, the currentwestwarddrift ofthe populationtoward the Everglades jeopardizes

what

isalreadyanenvironmentally threatenedarea.Currentgrowth anddevelopmentpatterns

make

itclear thatplannersinsoutheast Floridaneedtobe

more

creativeinthe

way

they

manage

growth.

To

combat

andchangethe patternof developmentinSoutheastFlorida, theGovernor's

Commission

fora Sustainable South Florida developed the Eastward Ho! strategy, explained in the

Commission's

report

Eastward

Ho!

RevitalizingSoutheast Florida's

Urban

Core.Eastward Ho! isthe

Commission's

efforttodirect

more

ofthepopulationgrowthintothedevelopedcorridorbetweentheFloridaEastCoast RailroadandtheChesapeake SeaboardRailroad.Thiscorridor,justwest oftheSoutheast Floridacoastline,

was

chosen because of its existing infrastructure and opportunities for infill and redevelopment.

By

creating

more

attractive

development

opportunitieswithinthe redevelopmentdistrict, the

Commission

hopes that

more

people will settle between the railroads and fewer will choose to live in sprawling

development

westofthe area.

The

Eastward Ho!

program

has outlined three broadareasofconcern:thephysicalcharacteristicsof thearea,

from

openspacetopublic facilities

management;

the

human

characteristicsofthe area,

which

includesjobs and crime; and infill and redevelopment in the study area, which includes reclaiming contaminated sitesandfinancingprojects.

To

address theseconcerns,the

Eastward

Ho!

report includes 44

recommendations

designedto revitalizetheurbancore.

Key

totheEastward Ho!

program

are incentivestodevelopersto usea

more compact

urbanform in

the Eastward Ho! study area.

The recommendations

encourage higher density

development

around transportation nodes, specifically nearstops alongthe Tri-Rail system,which runs between

West Palm

Beach

and

Miami

andhas 17 stations. Efforts to bolster ridershiponTri-Rail willreduce

dependancy on

the automobile and consequently reduce congestion on the roads. "It's the

key

to our infill

and

redevelopmentstrategy,"saidJohn

DeGrove.

One

ofthe basic principles ofthe Eastward Ho! project isthat sustainability as a concept

must

be applied broadly.

The

goalof protectingtheEvergladesdepends ona viableandsustainableurbancorridor intheEastward Ho!studyarea.

Keeping

suburbansprawlfrom encroaching ontheEvergladesecosystem

means

havingattractive urban optionsfordevelopment andredevelopment.

Information aboutEastward Ho! andotherplanningtopics in southeast Floridacan beseenat

(3)

say, todevelop

where

we

want

developerstogothan out

on

the edgeto

do

sprawl development.

CP: Istheregoingtobeanyattemptto

make

itharder for

them

todo

development

outontheedge?

JD:Yes.

By

increasingtheconcurrencyrequirements outthere.

The

main

thingisto

draw

realurbangrowth boundaries and to reduce densities in areas outside those urban

growth

boundaries

—

reduce

them

very substantially.

CP:Itseemslikein thiscountryyouoftenhearpeople say,everyone

wants

their

own

home

witha two-car garage,andalawn,andsoon andsoforth.

Do

people

want

to live in

compact

developments?

Given

the

choice,

what

do they choose?Also,haveanysurveys beendone ofthis?

JD: Yes,there are

some

surveys,and we're goingto

promote

additional surveys about whether people

would

be willing ifgiven choices.

Are

there

some

people

who

would

like to live in moderate-density

communities

in this Eastward Ho! corridor? This

question has

been

raised all over the country, and everywhere

we've

given people well designed and attractiveoptions there has notbeenaproblem with themarket.

And

thatiscertainly trueof southFlorida, because, as

we

are beginning to learn, a surprising

amount

of

development

is going onin thiscorridor,

in the greater planning area as well asthe corridor

more

narrowlydefined.

And

thereisamarketforthis stuff.

At

Mizner Parkin

Boca

Raton,themostpopular thing there are the

282

rental and

condominium

apartmentsthatare

up

overtheretail.

What

Ineedto

know

is

who

arethose peopleliving there,

who

are thepeopleonthewaiting list?

CP:

And why

arethey decidingto live there. . .

JD:

Why

aretheydeciding theylike that idea.Because

I

know

a

number

of people

whom

I've talkedtosince

we've

started all this

who

say, "Listen, if

we

had a choice,

we'd

love to get out of

way

out west

—

it's

notreal farfrom

where

we

arenow, youunderstand because

we

getcaughtinallthistraffic. Giveus

some

good

options inthe East andwe'lltake it, leaveour

sprawl suburbiabehind.

We

are

very concerned

with

showing

the

development

community' that there is a market.

Of

course,

we

have a couple ofdevelopers working in

thiscorridor

who

say"Hell,I

know

there's amarket.

We

have

a

couple

of

developers.

. .

who

say

"Hell,

I

know

there's

a

market

What

I

have

trouble

doing

is

getting

through

your

labyrinth

of

rules,

regulations

and

things

that

make

it

hard

for

me

to

do

anything."

I'vealreadybeen developingthecorridor. I have no

trouble filling

up

my

apartments,

rental or condominiums, or even single-family stuff

What

I

havetrouble doingisgettingthrough yourlabyrinth ofrules,regulations andthingsthat

make

ithardfor

me

to

do

anything."

CP:

As

thesemarketsdevelop, as

you

hope,

how

will youpreventgentrification

from

occurringin

some

of the infilland redevelopmentareas?

JD:

A

major,

major

issue.

We

have

a

whole

centerat

FloridaAtlanticUniversity

—

CURE:

The

Centerfor

Urban

Revitalization and

Empowerment,

I think it

standsfor.

The

centeris

now

undercontractwith

DCA

to

work

with

these existing

lower

income

communities,blackaswellasHispanic andwhite,to

make

sure they don't just get

wiped

out

by

a gentrificationprocess.

CP:

Are

there

any

particular tools or techniques they're arelookingatusingtopreventgentrification?

JD: Sure, including plans to upgrade

some

ofthese

neighborhoods, and even

expand

them.

We're

developingaplan

now

where

therealreadyisamajor expansion of a TriRail station underway. There's a

lotof landthere forinfillorredevelopment,including ablack

community

not toofaraway, and partofthe design strategy is to

expand and

strengthen that community. There are still

some

federal dollars for moderate and

low income

housing.

We

expecttohave Secretary

Cuomo

down

here

working

with us inthat corridoralongwith

EPA

andotherfederalagencies.

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VOLUME

22

NUMBER

us to

overcome

the problems ofbrownfields.

You

name

it,

we've

thought

of it, but

we

haven't

necessarily figured out

how

to

make

itgo.But we're not justgoing alongin

some

kindoffool'sparadise,

iswhat I'mtrying to say.

CP;

Now,

I'vebeeninsouth Floridaalittlebit,and I

remember

seeingalotofbigshoppingcenters witha

lotofbig-boxretailers.

JD: Thereare a lotof

them

down

here.

And

a lotof

them

are half

empty

too.

CP:

Are

thereanyoldershoppingcentersthatpeople arelookingatredeveloping?

JD:

The

answerto that isyes.

Mizner

Park is anold malldevelopmentthatIvotedforreluctantly

when

I

was

on theplanning board in

Boca

Raton years ago.

And

the city finally decided that it

was

souglyand notdoing well, thatthey bought itandtore it

down,

andthat'sbeenredeveloped. That'sone oftheleading examples of mixed-use successful redevelopment through apublic-private partnership.

CP:

Now

what's to stop people

from

just building

more

ofthebig-boxshopping centers?

JD: Well, as you

know,

this is an issue across the country

—

how

you

can stopthat.

Of

course land-use controls areone

way

you

can

do

it.

Or

else

you

tryto

Legislating Sustainability

In 1996,the Florida legislaturepassedthe

Department

of

Community

Affairs'

(DC A)

Sustainable

Communities

Demonstration Project.

The

Sustainable

Communities

legislation is significant for

two

reasons.First,itisthefirststatelegislationinthenationthatspecificallyoutlinessustainablecommunities as a legitimate interest ofthe state. Second, it codifies

what

the state ofFloridawill recognize as a sustainable

community

(seeoppositepage).

The

Sustainable

Communities

legislation is designed to accomplish six principles ofsustainable development: restoring key ecosystems; achievinga

more

clean, healthyenvironment; limiting urban sprawl; protectingwildlife and natural areas; advancingthe efficientuse ofland and otherresources; andcreatingqualitycommunities andjobs.

One

ofthe key aspects ofthe legislation is that it will give local governments

more

flexibilityto planaslongastheyobserve thesixprinciplesofsustainabledevelopmentandothercriteriaoutlined in

the legislation, which include establishing an urban growth boundary.

As

John

DeGrove

explained,

"The

local government gets thaturban growth boundary set and it's free to

do

damn

near anything it

wantsto inside thatboundary. It's freedup

from

a lotofstate rules and regulation, includingby other stateagencies."

AccordingtoSueMullins inFloridaPlanning magazine,

"The

departmentintendsforthe

program

to

remove

some

ofitsstrictlyoversightdutiesandcreateconditionstoencouragecreativeandinnovative approaches."Participating local governmentsreceive benefitssuchasexemption

from

DCA

review of local comprehensive plan

amendments

within their urban growth boundaries and prioritized funding from stateagencies.

To

participate inthe

program

local

governments

needto applyto the

DCA.

The

initial legislation onlyprovided fundingfor five localgovernmentstoparticipateintheprogram,but

DCA

isworking on

another round oflegislation that will

make

the project a state-wide effort. Participating governments

must

continue to uphold the guidelines set out inthe legislation toremain participants inthe project. Despite concernsthatthere

would

be littleinterestintheDemonstrationProject,28 localgovernments appliedforthe fivedesignated slots providedfor intheenabling legislation.

Not

all plannersare

jumping

onthe legislation's

bandwagon.

AccordingtotheApril 1997issueof P/a««/«g, Florida

APA

chapter president

Thomas

Pelham

has

warned

that the legislation

may

be the

(5)

Criteria forchoosingsustainable

communities

—

from

the Sustainable

Communities

Demonstration

Projectlegislation, Section 15,

HB

2705

Indetennming whethertodesignateall orpartofa localgovernmentasasustainablecommunity,the

DCA

shall:

A. Assurethatthelocalgovernmenthassetan urbandevelopmentboundary' or functionally equivalentmechanisms,based

onprojected needsandadequate dataandanalysis thatwill:

1. Encourage urban infillat appropriate densitiesand intensities, separate urbanand rural uses, anddiscourageurban

sprawl development patterns while preserving publicopen spaceand planning for buffer-type land usesand rural

developmentconsistent withtheirrespective character alongandoutsideoftheurbanboundary.

2. Assureprotectionof keynaturalareasandagricultural lands.

3. Ensurethe cost-efficientprovisionofpublicinfrastructureandser\'ices.

B. Considerandassess theextent towhichthe localgovernmenthasadopted programsinitslocalcomprehensiveplanor

landdevelopmentregulationswhich:

—

1. Promote infill development and redevelopment, including prioritized and timely permitting processes in which

applicationsfor localdevelopmentpermitswithintheurbandevelopment boundary areacteduponexpeditiouslyfor

proposed development whichisconsistent withthelocalcomprehensiveplan.

2. Promotethedevelopment of housingforlow-income andverylow-income householdsor specializedhousingtoassist

eldersandthe disabledtoremainathomeorinindependentlivingarrangements.

3. Achieveeffectiveintergovernmental coordination. =,

4. Promoteeconomicdiversity'andgrowthwhileencouragingthe retentionofruralcharacter,whereruralareasexist,and

theprotectionandrestorationoftheenvironment.

5. Provide andmaintain publicurbanandruralopenspaceandrecreational opportunities.

6. Managetransportationandlandusestosupport publictransitandpromoteopportunitiesforpedestrianand nonmotorized

transportation.

7. Useurbandesignprinciples to foster individualcommunity identit>',createasenseofplace, andpedestrian-oriented

safeneighborhoods and towncenters.

8. Redevelopblightedareas.

9. Improvedisasterpreparednessprograms andtheabilit} toprotect livesandproperty,especially in coastalhigh-hazard

areas.

10. Encourageclustered,mixed-usedevelopmentwhichincorporatesgreenspaceandresidentialdevelopmentwithinwalking

distanceof commercial development.

11. Demonstratefinancialandadministrativecapabilities toimplementthedesignation.

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VOLUME

22

NUMBER

2

You

have

got

to

be

careful

about

private

property

rights,

but

I'm

convinced

that

we

can

do

anything

hke

that

we

need

to

do

if

we

plan

carefully

and

if

we

have

a

solid

data

base

undergirding

those

plans.

doitthroughincentivesanddisincentives,andthat's partof

what

Sustainable

Communities

willbeabout. CP:

So

can

you

actuallyzonean areamixed-use and say

you

can'tput a bigshoppingcenter here;

you

can only puta mixed-use development.

JD:Yes. Portland Metro's doingit,and

we

coulddo it.But

you must

havechoices,andthere willstill be plenty of

room

for big-box retail. I mean,

we

may

have

more

of

them

than

we

need

already,

you

understand. I mean, that'sjusta matterofcarefully craftedcomprehensive plans and land-development regulations that are based on data.

You

have to be careful

about

private property rights, but

I'm

convincedthat

we

can

do

anythinglikethat

we

need todo if

we

plan carefullyand if

we

haveasoliddata baseundergirding thoseplans.

CP: I thinkI heard you say once that

you

don't see the privateproperty rights folks as athreat, but it's

kindofathorn inthe side oftheseefforts.

JD: It's notathreat; it'sathorn inthe side.

And

I'll

tell

you

why

it's a thorn in the side: because of ignorance, often, on the part of county and city attorneys. Being very cautious has a chilling effect on changing land-developmentregulationsandplans. "Gosh,

maybe

we'll get sued." So they say to city council, the county commissions, "Well, I can't guaranteeyou won'tget sued underthis Burt-Harris PrivateProperty Rights

Act

we now

haveinFlorida."

I don't think there's

any

question that has

had

somewhat

ofa chillingeffect, butfortunatelywe're

getting

more

and

more

otherlocal

governments

that havesaid"Look, if

we

do thiscarefully,we're going to go ahead and

make

the changes.

We're

goingto dothe things

we

needto do,and if

somebody

wants tosueus,let

them

sue."Boy, ifyou're not willingto standuptothat,evenamildprivate-property

wrongs

flaw, asIoftencallit,canshut

you

down

practically. Just out of being super cautious.

County

and

city attorneysare

famous

forbeing supercautious. CP:Let

me

askyou aboutTriRail.What's being done to encourage

more

peopleto usethat, as

opposed

to automobiles?

JD: Well,right

now

ridership isdeclining.

And

you

say,

my

god

you're puttingallyourhorses

on

thatto

make

sureEastward

Ho!

works. Wellthe reason is,

we're inthe midst ofdouble trackingthisthing and that

makes

itdifficulttomaintaintheschedule.

The

otherthing

we

needto

do

istointegratetheeast-west bussystemswiththenorth-southTriRailsystem

much

betterthantheyare

now

sothatpeople notonlywill find theschedule of TriRail convenient butwill find

iteasy to take abusto the station.

Only one

county has

made

amajor

move

inthatdirection,

and

that's

Palm Beach

throughtheir

Palm

Trans

which

istheir bus system.

They

adopted a six-cent local option gasoline taxacoupleofyearsago,andtheydedicated three cents ofit to updating their bus system and integrating itwiththeTriRail systemin

Palm

Beach

County.

I think TriRailridership peakedatten totwelve thousandfolksaday.Projectionsare,if

we

can

make

all these

improvements,

you'd

go

to 35, 40, 50 thousand folks aday. I forgetthe exactprojections,

but theyare verysubstantially greaterthan they are now.

And

that's feasible, but

we

haveto

make

sure

we

getthemoney.

And

we're proposing

—

we'regoing toputthisbeforethe legislaturenext year

—

a regional taxto supportthe publictransportation system, that

is TriRail and the buses with

maybe some

of that

money

goingto airports too. But mainly forsurface transportation.

TriRail's has

some

bidsoutfor

some

mixed-use development at the stations they

now

have

and

the stationsthey'replanning. I'mpushinghardtoensure thatthose

mixed

uses include the

maximum

feasible

amount

ofresidentialdevelopment as well as other uses,includingretailand lightindustry.

CP:

Can you

tellus aboutthe state role inEastward

(7)

JD;

When

theoriginal decision

was

made

toattempt to restore the Everglades ecosystem, there

was

a decision

by

thegovernorand othersto establishthe Governor's

Commission

on a Sustainable South Florida, a broad-based all-the-stakeholders-at-the-tablegroup thatbegan

work

threeyears ago.

About

a year and a half into our work,

we

concludedthat

you

couldn'trestore and sustain the Everglades ecosystemunless

we

haddifferenturban development patterns and unless

we

contained the projected 2 million population increase in Dade, Broward, and

Palm Beach

Counties,

between

now

andtheyear2020.

Out

ofthis

we

conceivedtheidea ofa regionaldevelopment andinfillcorridorgenerally running

from

Palm Beach

County,through

Broward

County and

into

Dade

County.

And

the specific

strategy to

implement

that

we

named

Eastward

Ho!

Eastward Ho!,

Westward

Woe

—

alright, if

you

want

toget cute.

To

encouragemainly throughincentives,

now

—

not so

much

through a system of

command

andcontrol;mainlythrough asystemofpowerful

(we

hope

powerful) incentives

—

led

by

the

Department

of

Community

Affairs, carriedout

by

the

two

regional planning councilsandwithalotofcontract

work

done with several folks including

my

center, the Joint CenterFor Environmental and

Urban

Problems,that

has this

whole

region as its area of interest

and

concern.

CP:

Does

theEastward Ho! program havethesupport oftheFloridaDepartment ofTransportation?

JD: Yes,yes,Ithink it'sfairtosay itdoes.

Our

DOT

is

now

(I'm trying to be careful

how

I saythis), for the

most

partit'spartofthe solutioninsteadofbeing, as it historically was, part ofthe problem. It does

recognize the relationship

between

transportation, landuse,and airquality.

CP:

I

have

a question

about

the sustainable communitieslegislation.Partofthe incentivepackage

isforthosecommunitiesthathavebeenselected,they don'thavetoget

DC

A

approval fora lot

of

. .

Growth

Management

Web

Sites

http://rs6000.adm.fau.edu/other/jctrenvp/

jcpage.htm

The

home

page of Florida Atlantic University's Joint

Center

for

Environmental. and

Urban

Problemsprovidesinformationaboutthe center's staff,

programs,

research

projects,

and

publications.

DeGrove's

biographical sketch includesa

good

pictureof him.

http://www.lincoIninst.edu/index.html

The

LincolnInstituteof

Land

Policy's

web

site includes

information

on

programs

and

publications on a

wide

variety of land use and land taxissues, includingalternatives tosprawl,

new

urbanism,

brownfields,

ecosystem

management,

andconser\'ation.

http://www.multnomah.Iib.or.us/metro/

index.html

Metro's

home

page

provides information on Portland'sregionalgrowth

management

services, parksand greenspace, solidwaste

management,

andtransportationplanning.

http://

www.ior.com/cityhall/httpddoc/

gma

This portion ofthe

Spokane

City Hall

web

site contains the full text of

Washington

State's

Growth

Management

Act.

become

a sustainable

community, you

have

to incorporate into

your

local plans

and

land

development

regulations these six principles of

sustainability.

And

what

they are, they reflect the goalsofthegrowth

management

system.

JD:

changes

in their

comprehensive

plan or developmentregulations.

CP:

Yes.

My

question is,

does

that serve as a contradiction to the state

growth-management

program.

JD: Sure,it would,ifnotforthe fact thatinorderto

CP:

Does

thestateplayanactiveroleinmaintaining,

making

sure those

communities

uphold

those principles?

JD: Yes. Itwill be monitored through the state and regional planningcouncils.

And,

secondly, ifalocal

(8)

VOLUME

22

NUMBER

2

We're

trying

to

build the

incentives.

. .

for

stronger

intergovernmental

coordination.

. .

that's

one

of

the things

you

have

to

do

to

be

a sustainable

community.

thenthey havetogo backtoall the regulationsthey were subject to in the firstplace. But the focus in this is on incentives,

on

providing at least modest fiscal benefits,

on

trying to get state agencies to coordinate with each other to get development to occur the

way we

want,

and

to encourage local governmentstoclean uptheir

own

codes.

I've just been

up

in Martin

County

(one ofthe

first five sustainable communities), north ofhere, trying to talk through

how we

can persuade Martin

County

tochangetheircomprehensiveplanandland

development

regulation to encourage sustainable

developmentinsteadoflow-densitysprawl. They're proudoftheirplan, see,buttheirplan

makes

itvery

difficulttodomixed-use,

you

know

thewholeconcept of

New

Urbanism

—

it

makes

it very difficult to do that sort ofthing.

And

we're trying to figure out a strategytogetthe strong supporters of environmental protectionandgrowth

management

inMartin

County

to recognize that their plan almost requires low-density sprawl. If they don't change that, they're goingtobe theloserinthelong runinprotecting not only their urban quality of life but their natural systems also.

And we

spenta couple of hours, and

we

decided

on

some

strategies, and we're going to startworkingwith acoupleof county commissioners andothersupthereto try topersuade

them

tochange theirways. It's going to be tricky, because they're

sortof

dug

in.

CP: Besides the transit network,

how

else are you trying to

make

thevarious localgovernments in the Eastward Ho! area

work

together?

JD: There are a lot

of

local

governments

in this

corridor. First,I'lljustsaythat'sachallenge.That's

why

part

one

of the sustainable

communities'

principlesisrealintergovernmental coordination with your neighbors;thatis,persuadinglocalgovernments, notonlydotheyneedtoplanforsustainabilitywithin their

own

limits,butthis isa region-widething,and they have to plan with each other. But,

you

know, that'snota naturalthingfor localgovernmentstodo.

And

so we'retryingtobuild the incentives in there for stronger intergovernmental coordination, and that's one

of

the things

you have

to

do

to be a sustainable

community.

CP:What'stheroleoftheregionalplanning councils

inthis?

JD:

They

have a critical role. They're being given substantial funding by the state,

by

the

Department

of

Community

Affairs, tohelpdothebaselinestudies,

help

document

the land uses in the corridor

now,

document

the developmentpatterns going on inthe

corridor,

where

vacant land is,

where

there are opportunities,

where

there are barriers,

where

there areproblems, identifyingbrownfieldsites,

you know,

allthebasicdataaboutthe corridor.

You

mightthink

we'd

haveallthat data.. .well,

maybe

you

wouldn't.

CP: What's beenthe role ofpublic involvement in Eastern

Ho!?

JD; It'sbeginningtobe extensive.

Our

JointCenter, for instance, is responsiblealongwith 1000 Friends of Floridaforputting together

workshops

all up and

down

the corridor with all sorts ofneighborhood groups. But not just

neighborhood

groups

—

with developers,bankers

—

^tryingtoinvolveeverypossible stakeholder in the corridor.

And

we've had

our problems:

we

think

we've

found everybodythat

we

oughttoinvolveandthen

somebody

pops

up

andsays "Well,nobody'stalked to

me."

One

ofthethings

we

feel

we

haveto

do

isengage

neighborhoods, engage communities,

parts

of

communities, and ofcourse, ultimately

whole

cities andwholecounties.Butit'shastobe. . .

we

seethat

as just ahugechallenge,toget allthoseactors inthe corridor to getinvolvedinthe

game,

including

some

now who

are either indifferent, skeptical, oroutright hostile

—

those people, notjust the ones

who

think this is a

good

idea. I'm willing to

work

to

make

it happen.

Now

thereareotherpeople

who

think it'sa

(9)

happen; theyjustdon't believeit'sgoingtohappen

CP: Are

thereany key

champions

withinthe corridor

of

the

Eastward

Ho!

project outside of the governmentalcouncils?

JD: Yes.

The guy

who

actually coined the phrase

"Eastward

Ho!"

is

Roy

Rogers,

who

is a vice-president for

JMB

Developers. They've done

some

ofthe

major

communities here in

Boca

Raton and

down

in

Broward

County, Weston, and others. It's

kind ofironic,because

Weston

isamajor

community

rightout

on

the western edge, right,so

Roy

Rogers, theirvicepresident,

comes

upwiththisEastwardHo! concept.

And

he'sa veryenthusiasticsupporterofit,

by

the

way. So

we

have a cadre ofdevelopers, and

peopleinbanks even,andothers.

Our

supportis not

only confinedto

government

do-gooders likeme.

We

also have sceptics, people

who

don't think

itsevergoingtogo anywhere,exceptwhat

was

going to

happen anyway.

They'resaying, you're notgoing to influencethis in any way.

And

some

of those are

on

the publicside, and

some

are

on

the private side. It's yet to be seen

how

effective this

whole

thing is

goingto be.It'snotsomething

you

candoovernight.

CP: Let's look out ten years. If

you

can

make

the

Eastward

Ho! project successful in ten years,

what

do you

thinkwill have

made

itso?

JD:

I think

being

creative

and

involving the

stakeholders in the region, getting

them

on board, persuading

them

it'sa

good

thing, persuading

them

that moderate-density, environmentally friendly placesaresomethingtheyoughttowelcome; showing

them

there'sa

good

market

—

we

have

good

evidence

on

thatalready

—

thatthere'samarket

when

you

give people choices for really well designed moderate-densityplaces.

Our

success in finding financing

—

finding the banks, the savings

and

loans, the

government

agencies, various kinds offederal initiatives we're

now

tryingto pull in

down

here. That's going tobe one,

you know, you must

havethefunding orit'snot going to happen, and this is funding for something that isdifferent. I think anothermeasure of success

will be,we'll lookandsay

"My

god,

we

did

manage

to drasticallyupgradeTriRail,and

we

do have mixed-use developments in a lotofthese stations; thebus systems

have

been

integrated with TriRail,

and

TriRailiscarrying25, 30, 40,45thousandpassengers aday."

CP:

What

do

you

see as the

key

components

of

effectivestateregionalplanning enablinglegislation? If

you

were goingto create John

DeGrove's dream

regionalplanninglegislation. . .

JD:Ithinkthatinthefirstplace,exceptintheunusual case ofa state that doesn't need a strong regional

component,

there has to be a strong regional

component.

And

there has to be a setofstate goals and objectives, a state plan that reflects those, and those goalshavetobereflectedinregionalplansand local plans.

On

the other hand, I thinkthething has tobebottom-up aswellastop-down.ButIthinkthat

framework

hastobethereandthe regionallevel has to have the capacity to see that local governments cannotgo forward planninginisolation. If

you

don't have that then

you

don't get an effective regional governance system. That'sall there isto it. It

must

have

some top-down

muscle, but it

must

have

incentives,strongincentives to get localgovernments toplaythe

game

willingly.

CP: Let

me

ask

you

oneoverarchingquestion.

How

do

you

know

we've

obtained

a sustainable

community?

How

will

you

know

ifyou've reached

the goal withEastward Ho! forinstance?

JD:

Remember when

Isaid that foranyeffectivestate or regional plan

you must

haveasetofgoals,asetof what-you-want-to-be-when-you-grow-up measures,

if

you

will,asetoftargets?Ithink

you

set

them

up,

and

what

we've done

is articulate

them

to a considerable extent intheSustainable

Communities

criteria,andas

you go

along

you

measure

what

you're doing: have

we

stopped this sprawl?

How

much

of thispopulation increaseare

we

accommodating

ina broadly defined

Eastward Ho!

corridor?

Are

we

continuing to

sprawl?

Did

we

give

up

on

the Evergladesagricultureareaand

now we

have "Dell

The

regional

level

has

to

have

the capacity

to

see

that local

(10)

VOLUME

22

NUMBER

2

11

Webb

Sun

City" there?

Or

do

we

have sustainable agriculture out there that is no longer pollutingthe ecosystem. I

mean,

you must

havethese measures,

right:

how much

mixed-usehousing,

how much

low-income

housing,

how

much

job-producingthingsare

we

getting inthe corridor?

CP: Ispartoftheprocessgoingto be,perhaps,toset

some

numeric goals?

JD: Absolutely.

We

know

there are going to be 2 million

more

people

—

ofcourse

my

environmental friends say,

"Good

god,

DeGrove,

you

oughtto be

working

on keeping

them

from coming, instead of

accommodating them

without ruining the region." Well, that's not

my

position, as

you

know. They're goingto

come;

we'llbeluckyif it'sonlytwomillion.

Look

attheweatherout heretoday.Supposeyou

were

up there in

New

England

fighting that black-ice,

do

theycallit?Ithinkthat

we

must

havemeasures,

you

know,

milestones.

You

know

all these

words

you

plaimersuse.

We

must

havethesebuihinsothatwe're constantlylookingandasking, are

we

gettingthere?

And

if

we

aren't

—

this is

where

a

new

term (along

withsustainability)has

come

on

the scene: adaptive

management.

Adaptive

management

has been applied

mainly inthe natural systemsrestorationarea.

What

it

means

is that

you

don't

know

everything about

everything, the science ofthis stuff, and you never will probably, and so

you

have to startdoing

some

things to correct the worst problems.

You

don't sit

around until

you

know

everything, because you'll never

know

everything.

Adaptive

management means

that

you

move

ahead

in

such

a

way

that

you

are constantly

monitoring the impacts of

what

you

are doing.

You

know

that

you

aretrying to achieveA, B, and

C

by

moving

ahead,andadaptive

management means you

have

a system in place to see

whether you

are achievingthat; and, ifnot,

how

you

haveto

change

things

—

adaptive

management.

You

don'tgo forward insucha

way

thatyoucloseoffallyouroptionsto

do

things differently, as the science gets better. That's especiallyimportantintheEverglades ecosystem.