International Criminal Court 1
Trial Chamber VI 2
Situation: Democratic Republic of the Congo 3
In the case of The Prosecutor v. Bosco Ntaganda - ICC-01/04-02/06 4
Presiding Judge Robert Fremr, Judge Kuniko Ozaki and Judge Chang-ho Chung 5
Trial Hearing - Courtroom 2 6
Tuesday, 14 June 2016 7
(The hearing starts in open session at 9.31 a.m.) 8
THE COURT USHER: All rise. 9
The International Criminal Court is now in session. 10
Please be seated. 11
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Good morning, everybody. 12
Court officer, please call the case. 13
THE COURT OFFICER: Thank you, Mr President. 14
The situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in the case of The Prosecutor 15
versus Bosco Ntaganda, case reference ICC-01/04-02/06. 16
We are in open session. 17
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Thank you. 18
Now appearances, please, starting with Prosecution. 19
MS SOLANO: Good morning, your Honours. For the Prosecution this morning 20
Mr Rens van der Werf, assistant trial lawyer; Ms Laura Morris, assistant trial lawyer; 21
Ms Dianne Luping, trial lawyer; Ms Paola Sacchi, assistant legal officer; Ms Selam 22
Yirgou, case manager; and I am Julieta Solano, trial lawyer. 23
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Thank you, Ms Solano. 24
Now Defence, please. 25
MR GOSNELL: Good morning, Mr President. Good morning, your Honours. 1
Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom. Christopher Gosnell for 2
Mr Ntaganda, assisted this morning by Isabelle Martineau and Sandrine De Sena. 3
Thank you very much. 4
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: And I note that Mr Ntaganda himself is present. 5
Legal Representatives of Victims, please. 6
MS PELLET: (Interpretation) Thank you, your Honour. Former child soldiers 7
represented by Mohamed Abdou and myself Sarah Pellet, counsel with the Office of 8
Public Counsel for Victims. 9
MR SUPRUN: (Interpretation) Good morning, your Honour, your Honours. The 10
victims of the attacks are represented by myself, Dmytro Suprun, counsel with the 11
Office of Public Counsel for Victims. 12
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Thank you, Ms Pellet. Thank you, Mr Suprun. And 13
I also note for the record that we have with us Mr Levine who represents the UN 14
because of the special procedural circumstances of this testimony. 15
Good morning, Madam Witness. 16
WITNESS: DRC-OTP-P-0046 (On former oath) 17
THE WITNESS: Good morning. 18
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Normally I emphasise to witnesses they should 19
observe my guidance, but because you did it perfectly I don't feel a need to repeat my 20
guidance from yesterday. But there is another duty, I have to remind you that you 21
are still under oath which is I guess clear to you. So you still have to speak truth and 22
nothing but the truth. 23
THE WITNESS: Understood. 24
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Unless there are no requests from the floor we can 25
smoothly continue with examination-in-chief of the witness. 1
So, Ms Solano, please proceed. 2
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. 3
QUESTIONED BY MS SOLANO: (Continuing) 4
Q. Good morning. 5
A. Good morning. 6
Q. Madam, I would like to show you a report that we discussed yesterday. 7
Can the court officer please display DRC-OTP-0152-0256. 8
THE COURT OFFICER: The document will be displayed on the evidence 1 channel. 9
THE WITNESS: I can see it. 10
MS SOLANO: (Microphone not activated) 11
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. 12
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Ms Solano, please switch on your mic. You forgot. 13
MS SOLANO: Yes, your Honour. 14
Q. Madam, visible in front of you on the first page of this document is a chart. 15
Are you familiar with that chart? 16
A. Yes, I am. 17
Q. It contains the names of armed groups, their leaders, their estimated total forces 18
and the percentage of the total of those forces that were child soldiers. Are you, 19
Madam, familiar with how those numbers came to appear in this report? 20
A. Yes. The exercise of estimating the forces that were with the various armed 21
groups was done mainly by the information gathered by MONUC military 22
components, of course who benefitted from various information they gathered not 23
only from the child protection personnel but also from their own estimates, visits, 24
et cetera. So we used these figures to have -- yeah, as a representation of what we 25
estimated at the time were the number of children associated with armed groups. 1
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Sorry, one additional question. 2
Madam Witness, this column covering child soldiers, does it mean that it covers 3
children under 18 or under 15 years. 4
THE WITNESS: Under 18. 5
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: 18, okay. Thank you. 6
MS SOLANO: And can the court officer please display DRC-OTP-0744-0422. 7
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: In the meantime, one small correction of the transcript, 8
line 18, I didn't say covers charges but covers children. Thank you. 9
MS SOLANO: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I've lost the reference that I was looking for 10
momentarily. 11
Should I continue, your Honour? 12
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: I don't think so, because I'm not sure what equipment 13
have been affected by this. For the record, we lost the light, but now seems that at 14
least light is back. Give us a minute, our court officer will check whether everything 15
is working, all equipment. 16
So I got indication we may continue. So Ms Solano, please proceed. 17
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. And can the court officer on that 18
document please turn to page 0461, paragraph 141. 19
Q. Madam, but before I ask you my question, you had a chance I believe to look at 20
the first page of this document. 21
A. It was a letter, yes, a letter. 22
Q. Can we return -- can the court officer please return to page 0423 for a moment 23
so that the witness can orient herself. 24
Do you recognize this document? 25
A. Yes. 1
Q. So it is the same document I showed you yesterday, the longer document that 2
you described having had some involvement with. 3
So now at page 0461, please. In paragraph 141 there is a reference on the fourth 4
line -- well I'll just quote from the second line: 5
"Although the exact number of children is unknown, child protection partners believe 6
that, as a conservative estimate, at least 40 per cent of each militia force are children 7
below the age of 18, with a significant minority below the age of 15." Madam, can 8
you explain to the Court what is the relationship between this figure that we can see 9
in this special Ituri report and the report I showed you a moment ago? 10
A. Well, its information are consistent when we provided the estimate of 11
40 per cent of children below the age of 18. When mentioning a significant minority, 12
it's based on the document -- of the information -- on the information we collected 13
from the children ourselves from those we had interviewed, from direct testimonies 14
of MONUC military observers, from the information also we gathered from various 15
protection partners and other sources. 16
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Madam Witness, I know that it's just estimate, but still 17
what we should imagine under the term "significant minority" could you be more 18
specific. 19
THE WITNESS: Well we cannot -- I mean I would not say that it was only -- that 20
there were only one or two children that were by chance, you know, present within 21
the armed groups. It was a pattern. We knew that there were a significant portion 22
without being able to provide precise data, but that was not -- there were just 23
not -- yeah, as I said, one or two by chance. 24
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Okay. Thank you. 25
MS SOLANO: 1
Q. Madam, yesterday you alluded to the situation which humanitarian workers 2
worked in in Bunia while you were employed by MONUC, but we did not go into 3
details. Can you give us a greater understanding based on your knowledge of what 4
was the situation of humanitarian workers? 5
A. Humanitarian agencies had, including non-governmental agencies and UN 6
agencies, had serious reservation about the security condition that were -- that 7
was -- well, the security in Ituri at large in 2002 and 2003. I'm not sure whether I 8
already mentioned that in 2001 the humanitarian community had been affected by the 9
murder of I believe seven ICOC workers in that region. We knew also that threats 10
were being -- that humanitarian workers and agencies had been facing threats, direct 11
threats by various armed groups. We know that some NGOs had pulled out of Ituri 12
because of security concerns. I mean at that time before mid-2003 MONUC did not 13
have military forces on the ground. One of the reason why we did not have civilian 14
personnel deployed there before, well, March -- May 2003, we knew, for instance, 15
some humanitarian workers had been declared persona non grata from Ituri at 16
different point of time. For instance, I remember the case of one person working for 17
the Office of Humanitarian Affairs, for OCHA, who was PNG'd, was expelled 18
from -- was asked to leave Ituri in sometimes end November 2003, if my recollection 19
is correct. So working in Ituri was really not easy, certain roads were not accessible. 20
We knew that certain areas were very -- well, very dangerous. MONUC had lost -- I 21
mean that -- I don't know the proper word -- two of our military observers had been 22
killed in Mongbwalu in, I think in May 2003. We've lost other personnel. 23
Humanitarian convoys faced armed attack. And during some of this violent episode 24
MONUC has been under fire -- direct fire as well. So I mean humanitarian agencies, 25
particularly taking into considerations that they do not have armed guards, armed 1
personnel themselves, were operating in a very sensitive environment and delivery of 2
humanitarian assistance was very, were limited. There were entire part of Ituri who 3
did not receive any humanitarian assistance at this point of time and for victims, for 4
victims or for people in need of assistance, whether it's medical assistance or 5
nutritional help, it was difficult for the population in need to Ituri to access 6
humanitarian assistance and to reach the places where few organisations were 7
operating. 8
Q. Thank you, madam. In relation to the -- the staff member of OCHA that you 9
referred to, who was this person expelled by? 10
A. At that time UPC. 11
Q. And you said that this person was declared persona non grata. What exactly 12
do you mean? Do you know the reasons why this person was expelled? 13
A. Not exactly, not exactly. I'm not aware of the precise threats he's -- he's been 14
under. OCHA was reporting on humanitarian -- that's the mandate of OCHA, all 15
over the planet, they do report on -- on the humanitarian situation on blockages, 16
on -- on issues impacting the delivery of humanitarian assistance. 17
And they were vocal about the situation of Ituri at that time. And some of the armed 18
groups responsible for this situation on -- I mean, armed groups responsible for the 19
situation were not necessarily happy to -- to have their -- their behaviour being made 20
public and being shared with outside of the areas they had under their control. 21
And at that time, UPC was very unhappy for any public report, public statement or 22
anything that could impact their, let's say, image. 23
Q. Thank you. Madam, I would like to take you to the period of May 2003 in 24
Ituri. 25
A. Mm-hmm. 1
Q. Do you recall what was going on in Ituri at that time, in Bunia more precisely? 2
A. Well, Bunia had been affected, impacted since March by different fights and 3
combats. In May UPC had taken over the city again. Well, the situation was of 4
course very, very bad, very concerning. There were massive amount of -- of 5
displaced people, some of -- I mean, a few thousands of them had taken refuge in 6
Bunia around the two locations where MONUC was settled. That was the first 7
time -- I'm repeating myself that MONUC established a presence larger than only 8
military advisers. 9
So we had established an office in the city centre and we had a presence also near the 10
airport. And thousands of -- thousands of people had sought protection from 11
MONUC, coming to live around our buildings at that time to -- well, thinking 12
about -- I mean, thinking that they would be protected by our presence. 13
Q. And were they protected by your presence? 14
A. Well, I believe that most of those who sought refuge in these two -- they were 15
not camp at that time, they were just people who regrouped around these areas. 16
Most of those who -- who sought refuge there were protected, were indeed protected, 17
haven't been directly attacked. However, I've got to -- to admit that during that time 18
people in the camp were still threatened and were still victims of violence at times, or 19
even -- I mean, not even, it's -- I -- we know that our daily workers, MONUC daily 20
workers were accommodated in the camp were under threat. 21
We know that -- I mean there were certain, again, part of -- certain group of 22
inhabitants were specifically targeted. The non-Iturian, the policemen that were 23
coming from -- that had been deployed by the Kinshasa government, taxi drivers 24
were accused of transporting goods and people across front lines, across territories 25
were at risk. Also members of the interim administration, the Ituri interim 1
administration had sought refuge around MONUC because they were also threatened. 2
And people outside, those who were not -- who did not regroup in these two areas 3
that were very small. You know, assassination continued in Bunia, sexual violence 4
and people being targeted. I mean, this period of time was not easy. 5
Q. Madam, based on your experience, what was the source or what were the 6
sources of these threats to the non-Iturians, to the taxi drivers, to the displaced 7
population? 8
A. At this point of time, the UPC. 9
Q. And why do you say so? 10
A. Well, they were -- we investigated the allegations, we talked to witnesses, 11
we -- witnesses the behaviour of the UPC troops that were in control of certain areas 12
of Bunia. 13
Q. What areas of Bunia? 14
A. Excuse me? 15
Q. What areas of Bunia? 16
A. Mainly the city centre, the area on the north of Bunia, in the northeast, the south 17
was still, I would say, under control of Lendus troop. I'm not -- not that there was a 18
street front line, not that people were not moving from an area to another one, but the 19
southern areas of Bunia were -- yeah, were more under the Lendus control, in 20
brackets. 21
Q. You mentioned the Ituri interim administration. 22
A. Yeah. 23
Q. Can you explain briefly what that was? 24
A. Well, following the ICP, the Ituri Pacification Commission that took place in 25
March/April, I don't remember the exactly the name -- the time, the date. 1
An interim administration was set up with the support of the international 2
community at that time. Most of the lead -- community political armed leaders had 3
gathered with the MONUC presence and Ugandan presence, Rwandan presence also 4
I think were also there, to find a way to have an administration that could take over 5
from the various militia fighting here and there, so people were -- and various people 6
from the various ethnic groups, ethnic groups, yeah, were elected, selected to form an 7
interim administration that would be in charge of managing the district and, yeah, 8
assists with the pacification process within this administration, other -- working 9
groups were also set up, such as CCAG, which is a coordination committee for armed 10
groups, that would meet regularly with the assistance of MONUC with the aim of 11
preparing for the demobilisation and disarmament process. Not sure if I've 12
answered your question. 13
Q. Thank you, madam. You said that in May the UPC had taken over the city 14
again, so my question is what was the relation, if any, between the UPC having taken 15
over Bunia and the Ituri interim administration? 16
A. Well, the -- it was a transitional period where the interim administration was 17
recently set up, they were trying to -- to organise themself and to learn and build the 18
way they would operate. So UPC was in military -- was in control, they were still 19
present, armed force -- armed personnel were still - how can I say that - were still in 20
control. The Iturian administration did not have an army, did not have -- there was 21
no police presence, there was no justice, there was no state, basically, no state 22
structure. So in May we were in a period of, yeah, transition. Was -- the first days 23
of this interim administration was obviously not in control at that point of time. 24
Q. Were -- did you have contact with the Ituri interim administration yourself? 25
A. At certain point of time, yes, for specific issues. I've got to clarify that with 1
MONUC the relationship with the administration was led by the political branch of 2
the MONUC and for specific issues we would interact with certain persons. So yes, 3
I've interacted with Madam Pétronille, I don't remember her family name, Vaweka, 4
and Emmanuel Lecou on various issues, including the issue of -- related to children 5
associated with armed groups but also for other aspects such as, you know, the 6
celebration of the day of the African child that we wanted to have in June as -- as an 7
event that would reassure children and that would be a first and one sign of the 8
pacification process being, well, in progress. We also interacted with them about 9
children in detention, about various topics. 10
Q. Was the UPC represented in the CCAG meetings? 11
A. Yes. Yes, they were. Most of the time I believe that one of their 12
representative was present. I'm -- also the level for presentation has varied 13
depending on -- depending on the period. 14
Q. Did you, yourself, encounter any UPC representatives when when you --15
A. When I did attend some of these meetings, I was not attending all of them at all. 16
Most of the time, again, with MONUC who's interacting, with who's responsible for 17
managing the CCAG, was a military component of the MONUC. Sometimes we 18
would share information or request through the military branch to be shared with the 19
armed groups and at times I was also present, but not many times. 20
Q. Who were the members of the Ituri administration that you alluded to earlier as 21
having sought refuge near MONUC in this period? 22
A. I cannot recall exactly. I remember that Madam Pétronille was near the 23
MONUC HQ in the city centre. I believe others as well, but I cannot recall their 24
names and --25
Q. Thank you. And you alluded to certain cases of sexual violence in this period. 1
Can you give more precisions in that regard? 2
A. Particularly in May, June and July many cases were brought to the attention of 3
MONUC, were reported to us. People would come to our offices to report cases of 4
sexual violence, most of them, if not, affecting girls. And when I say "many", it was 5
more than one per day. At times we had three, four, five allegations per day. And 6
we knew that other cases of sexual violence were taking place and were -- that were 7
not reporting -- reported to us. 8
I mean, access to MONUC was also very limited to persons who felt confident to 9
come to our -- yeah, to our buildings. Later on I'm aware of many other -- many 10
other cases that took place during that period that were documented afterwards, but, 11
I mean, we knew that sexual violence was taking place in areas that were very, very 12
close to MONUC and that was pretty difficult to, at times, not to be able to intervene. 13
We know that -- well, I'm sure that you are going to ask me the question, but rapes 14
were taking place, well, around the HQ, taking place in Sayo, in Simbiliabo, areas 15
where we were at times patrolling and yeah. 16
Q. What do you mean by the HQ? 17
A. MONUC HQ at the city centre. 18
Q. And did you learn who were the persons responsible for these rapes? 19
A. At that time in these areas it was the UPC. Again, I mean sexual violence has 20
taking -- has happened in a lot of places in Ituri during the entire period in 2002, 2003, 21
2004 and was committed by most of the armed groups as well. I mean we've seen 22
waves of sexual violence carried out by the various armed groups at different times. 23
At this period of time in this area of Bunia UPC was -- was responsible. We had 24
testimony of UPC soldiers. We went to a place that was known as being a prison, 25
well, a detention place by UPC. I believe it was in Sayo. We had numerous 1
testimonies that were consistently referring to UPC soldiers and officers being 2
responsible for sexual violence. And we thought also that it was just not -- did not 3
just take place by chance. I mean it was -- there were too many cases to be just 4
isolated incident. 5
Q. To your knowledge, were these reports of rapes that you were receiving, in 6
particular in May 2003, were they brought to the attention of the UPC? 7
A. Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm confident they were. 8
Q. Can you explain? 9
A. Well, that was -- all these cases were reported in the daily meetings we had with 10
the military component and the head of office. We -- I remember having drafted 11
documents that had to be shared with the UPC. I know that the issue was discussed 12
by our head of office at that time and in the following weeks and months, yeah, they 13
were. 14
Q. Can you remind us, just for the sake of convenience, who the head of office was 15
and can you also tell us what were these documents that you drafted that were -- that 16
had to be shared with the UPC? 17
A. I'm sure I drafted the specific letter addressed to the UPC. The period, I 18
cannot -- I'm not sure really. It was this period, May, June, early July. The head of 19
office, it has changed during that period. I'm not sure whether Alfaso was in charge 20
in May or if it was already Ms McAdams is present. 21
Q. This letter that you drafted, what did it say? 22
A. Well, we raised serious concerns about the level of sexual violence that we were 23
aware of and we requested a UPC chain of command to send clear orders to their 24
troops to refrain from; such behaviours. But the terms were very strong. 25
Q. Do you know whether this letter was delivered? 1
A. I believe it was. 2
Q. Do you know whom it was addressed to? 3
A. It was addressed to Mr Lubanga. 4
Q. Madam, the victims, the people who were reporting rapes in this period, what 5
were their ethnicities? 6
A. There was not one ethnic group particularly targeted. I mean, women and 7
girls from the Hema community were also victims of sexual violence. As far as 8
I recall, the majority of them were not from the Hema group, but all, all of them. 9
Q. Did you have any contact personally with Thomas Lubanga? 10
A. I mentioned that in a previous testimony, yes, I had the occasion of attending a 11
meeting with him end of May I believe, together with the MONUC head of office, 12
Alfaso. 13
Q. And what happened at this meeting. Can you tell us about it? 14
A. The meeting was mostly to discuss with the UPC the arrival of the international 15
forces and to -- yeah, that was main aim of the meeting. I was also present to raise 16
the issue of children associated with his groups, with his armed group, with UPC. 17
Q. And did you raise the issue? 18
A. Yes. I also -- I mean the head of office also raised concerns about the current 19
insecurity, about all the allegations that were received by the child protection section 20
but also the human rights section, concerns about disappearance, killings, sexual 21
violence as well was mentioned. And I particularly raise the point about children 22
associated with UPC, yeah. 23
Q. Can you give more details about what you said and whether there was any 24
reaction on the part of Mr Lubanga? 25
A. I remember to have shared several documents. I mean first having raised 1
concerns about the number of children we knew were associated with his troops. 2
We shared concerns about -- I shared also various documents that we usually shared 3
with various armed groups and also collectivity leaders, such as I mentioned the 4
Convention on the Rights of the Child, the resolution 1460 that mandated us to 5
document the presence of children within the armed groups and forces, the report of 6
the secretary -- the special representative to the secretary general on children in 7
armed conflict that was naming the UPC as a group using child soldier. So we 8
shared all these document to inform him about what the section was doing, what 9
MONUC was doing, about the fact that we are monitoring and documenting the 10
presence of children within this group and also to ask for a focal person with whom 11
we could interact. 12
As part of the Ituri Pacification Commission one of the request MONUC had for all 13
armed groups was to appoint a special person, particularly responsible for interaction 14
regarding child soldiers. And so far, we did not have any from UPC, so I shared this 15
request with him again. 16
Q. And was a focal point appointed for the UPC to your knowledge? 17
A. No. To my knowledge, no. 18
Q. Where did this meeting take place? 19
A. At one of the residence used by Mr Lubanga when he was in Bunia and the 20
building was located as far as -- in the north of the city. As far as I remember it was 21
located in Mudzipela area. 22
Q. And what time of the day was this meeting? 23
A. It was at the end of the day. 24
Q. Can you describe what you observed at this -- at this residence? 25
A. What I, sorry? 1
Q. What you observed. 2
A. I already mentioned this in a previous testimony, but, well, first of all -- first of 3
all -- well, we witness the presence of armed guards that were guarding Mr Lubanga 4
residence, which was perfectly agreed to by -- according to the agreement that was 5
existing for various leaders. I think -- I'm not sure I recall correctly, but each 6
representative of armed group was allowed to keep certain number of armed guards 7
for their own protection. Among those who were guarding that residence we noted 8
the presence of a very young child who was armed among his soldier. 9
Q. And what do you mean by very young? 10
A. By very young it meant that, without talking to the person and without further 11
interaction we all thought that he was below 15. 12
Q. How was this child armed? 13
A. I believe it was with a kind of Kalachnikov, AK-47 most probably. 14
Q. And how was the child dressed? 15
A. In uniform, or what kind of uniform I cannot tell you. All guards were 16
wearing a uniform. 17
Q. Apart from you and Mr Alfaso, do you remember whether anybody else was 18
present on the part of MONUC? 19
A. Yes, I think I've provided the names already. I don't remember them, but they 20
were political officer, security officer, maybe other persons attended. We were two 21
vehicles, two MONUC vehicles so were probably four, five, six. 22
Q. Would you describe --23
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Sorry, Ms Solano. 24
Mr Gosnell, please. 25
MR GOSNELL: I believe there's a transcript error at page 19, line 19. I'm not sure 1
the customary manner of dealing with this type of problem. I heard a number but I 2
don't want to repeat it if that's improper in this courtroom. 3
MS SOLANO: I'm not going to hesitate because I heard the witness hear a number 4
very clearly and I'm confident that the recording would have captured it. But I will 5
repeat the question just to be on the safe side. 6
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: But according my note, I have to admit that the 7
number was different. So please, put the question again. 8
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. 9
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: This child that you saw guarding Mr Lubanga's 10
residence at the time of this meeting at the end of May 2003, you describe the child as 11
very young and I asked you what did you mean by very young. And then you said, 12
without talking to the person and without further interaction we knew that he was 13
below --14
THE WITNESS: Well, let me think correctly about this one. 15
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Madam Witness, we can give you alternative, because 16
one alternative that you said below 15. 17
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know I said below 15, but now --18
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Because in the transcript we have below 13, but 19
according to my notes you said below 15. 20
THE WITNESS: Yes, but now that you -- I don't recall exactly what. I'm -- I'm 21
afraid to mix information. Okay, he was below 18, that's for sure. I don't remember 22
exactly now. I know that I've provided information in previous testimony. I'm 23
afraid I would mix if I was mentioning 15. 24
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: So --25
THE WITNESS: Below 18 is for sure. Sorry. 1
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: All right. So now we have a third number. No 2
problem, if you're not sure, it's always better to express even your doubts as you did 3
it now. It's fine. 4
MS SOLANO: 5
Q. Madam, this meeting with Mr Lubanga, would you describe it as a 6
working-level meeting, a high-level meeting, how would you describe it in light of 7
the people who attended? 8
A. It was a high-level meeting. The head of office of MONUC going to meet one 9
of the armed leader was not considered working-level meeting. It was special. The 10
circumstances were also important. So, yeah. 11
Q. Did Mr Lubanga react to the information and the materials that you provided 12
concerning the children associated with armed forces and groups and with his group 13
in particular? 14
A. The topic was brought at the end of the meeting and it was already very late so 15
we did not have time to elaborate. I remember again having mentioned to -- having 16
mentioned that the Rome Statute had been ratified by the DRC and that his group 17
was also -- would also be scrutinised in that prospect. I remember stating that 18
because -- well, the head of office afterwards just discussed that with me. And also it 19
was one way to -- to advocate. I mean it was -- we were trying to use this fact as an 20
advocacy tool thinking that maybe it would assist with the prevention of the -- of the 21
phenomenon. And we were doing it with all groups, not only this one. 22
Q. Thank you, Madam. You've already explained that the UPC did not appoint 23
the focal point. Throughout your time as a protection -- as a child protection adviser 24
in Ituri, did the -- did you have any contacts with the UPC regarding the children in 25
their group? 1
A. We decided -- I mean, me as a child protection adviser but also with -- in 2
coordination or in agreement with the other child protection agencies have decided 3
that we would all communicate with the armed groups using -- through the interim 4
administration mechanism. So we raised our concerns with representative of the 5
administration and we also shared messages, direct messages through the CCAG, 6
through the military branch of the MONUC and when necessary through the head of 7
office. I did meet certain armed group leaders during field missions. But as a 8
matter of consistency we were supporting the interim administration to take in charge 9
discussions and negotiation with various groups. 10
Q. Did the UPC ever reach out to you to discuss demobilisation of children in the 11
ranks or other issues related to children in the ranks? 12
A. Not that I recall, no. To me personally, no. 13
Q. Do you recall whether the UPC ever announced efforts to demobilise children in 14
their ranks? 15
A. I've been informed, I believe it was the 2nd of June, so two days or one day after 16
the meeting we had with MONUC and with Mr Thomas Lubanga that a communiqué 17
had been broadcasted through Radio Candip who was known as the radio that at that 18
time was used by the UPC to share messages and, yeah, to share their information. 19
So I was informed by my colleagues from public information that a communiqué had 20
been broadcasted announcing the demobilisation of children of the UPC. So they, 21
they gave me the -- the written transcript, transcript of this broadcast but we at 22
that -- I was -- MONUC was never communicated this document on paper. I never 23
received it. I know also that at least one child protection NGO was approached 24
during that period by one UPC commander to discuss the demobilisation of some 25
children. 1
Q. I will come to that UPC commander later, but for now I want to ask you 2
whether you informed your hierarchy about this -- the report of the UPC having 3
issued a decree relating to demobilisation of children? 4
A. Yeah, no -- I mean yes, of course. I mean we discussed that during the daily 5
meetings. I remember that we have all looked for these documents, whether it has 6
reached another component of the MONUC, whether it could have been lost 7
somewhere or -- yeah, I mean at that time I have been asking all colleagues to know 8
whether they had been informed or not, including all militaries, and we had not been. 9
Q. And in -- how about your supervisor in Kinshasa, who as I understand your 10
evidence would not have been present at the daily meetings? Was your supervisor 11
in Kinshasa informed about the report? 12
A. About this communiqué? 13
Q. Yes. 14
A. Yes, I have shared the entire transcript with Kinshasa in my, I think it was a 15
weekly report or a daily report, but they had the entire transcript made available 16
immediately yes. 17
MS SOLANO: Can the court officer please displace DRC-OTP-0001-0033 and I will 18
try to find the tab number. The document can be displayed publicly. It's the 19
document at tab 1. 20
Q. Madam, do you recognize this document? 21
A. Yes, this is one of the weekly report I was sharing with, with Kinshasa and with 22
the head of office and with other colleagues within MONUC. 23
Q. I see that your name appears below the date of this week 24 - 15 June 2003 24
report. Why does your name appear there? 25
A. Because I wrote it. 1
MS SOLANO: Can the court officer please turn to the next page. 2
Q. And there is a document, Ms Peduto, on the third page to "The Day of the 3
African Child" which you've alluded to before. And a few lines below the 4
reference -- in the paragraph that deals with The Day of the African Child there is a 5
reference to the fact that UNICEF will reopen some schools for this event. 6
Can you explain what this refers to? 7
A. Well, at that time all schools had been closed. Most of -- most if not were not 8
functioning so it was pretty important to advise -- to ensure that children could go 9
back to a certain normal life that would include going back to schools. 10
Q. And why had the schools been closed? 11
A. Because of the violence, insecurity. 12
Q. In the next paragraph the subtitle is "IDPs and ENAs in Bunia." What does 13
ENAs mean? 14
A. Enfants non accompagnés; unaccompanied children. 15
Q. And almost at the end of that paragraph there is a reference to training on 16
procedures and identification being carried out on Saturday with those persons, so 17
that the data gathered corresponds to minimum standards. Can you explain what 18
"identification" relates to? 19
A. I don't see the sentence, but the identification is --20
Q. Please let me point you to it. In the paragraph -- in the subparagraph about 21
IDPs and ENAs in Bunia? 22
A. Mm-hmm. 23
Q. Four lines from the bottom. 24
Can the court officer please scroll down so that the bottom of the paragraph is visible. 25
Thank you. 1
A. Thank you. Yes, sorry, could you repeat your question? 2
Q. I'm interested in understanding what you meant when you refer to training on 3
procedures and identification? 4
A. Well, in relation to unaccompanied children there are certain number of 5
information that are required in order to have the most efficient family tracing 6
undertaken, and at that time there were many organisation who came across children 7
were not with their parents who had been taken care of by person who were not 8
necessarily from their own families, children who had been displaced and parents 9
who had -- or disappear in other areas and they were all -- or had been killed. And it 10
was important to gather information in a systematic manner, that all person would 11
record the same type of information that would then in turn be shared with 12
organisation in other areas -- in other areas of the district or the country. There were 13
at that time many displaced person further south around Beni, in around the acts of 14
Beni, and also people who had fled to Kisangani or also to Uganda. So tracing 15
to -- the information we were -- we had to gather about these unaccompanied 16
children had to be as, as detailed and consistent as possible in order to have a fast 17
process. 18
Q. Was there any relation between the unaccompanied childrens and the children 19
associated with armed forces and groups? 20
A. Yes and no. I mean the same procedure was used to trace the family of 21
children associated with armed groups, so the family tracing for a child, whether he is 22
accompanied or whether his family, whereabouts of his family are unknown are the 23
same. Are the same, yeah. Pretty similar. 24
Q. Did this training on procedures and identification touch on the question of age 25
of the children? 1
A. Of course, yes. Yeah. 2
Q. Can you explain what you mean? 3
A. Well, while working with unaccompanied children, there are a certain set of 4
questions, very detailed, that are being asked to a child, would contribute to ascertain 5
the age of the child if he is able -- if he was able to provide one, or if too young to 6
estimate, with questioning also that would not only be directed to the child himself or 7
herself but also to the persons who would be taking care of, or the organisation who 8
would be taking care of the child. So there is -- it's pretty comprehensive. 9
Q. Thank you. 10
Can the court officer turn to the next page, please, page 0035. And this page deals 11
with monitoring activities. And in the bottom of the -- at the bottom of the page 12
there is a paragraph subtitled, "II.4 Recruitment and Use of Child Soldiers." 13
There is some information there, Madam. First about, one of the children 14
demobilised in 2001 by SOS Grands Lacs and subsequently to ten children recruited 15
by the UPC this month. Can you talk to us about both cases? 16
A. Well, in the first paragraph it's referring to children I believe we already talked a 17
little bit about, what -- been trained in Uganda, demobilised in 2001 with the 18
assistance of UNICEF. And SOS Grands Lacs was the organisation who was tasked 19
and supported, I believe, at that time to follow up the children during their 20
reintegration. They were -- I believe the organisation was responsible for family 21
tracing and also following up the children reintegration. And during the 22
documentation of -- of the -- I mean, one of the child I documented, who was 23
previously associated with an armed group, one of them said that he was part of this 24
group and had been re-recruited in the meantime and this child was belonging to the 25
UPC, was -- I mean, UPC was the last group the child was associated to when I talked 1
to him. 2
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Mr Gosnell. 3
MR GOSNELL: I'm sorry to interrupt, but there's another transcript issue page 27, 4
line 18 to 19. I actually heard the opposite; in other words, there should be a 5
negative, I believe before that word "able". It's a matter of some importance on our 6
side of the room. 7
MS SOLANO: I can seek to clarify, your Honour. 8
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Please, Ms Solano. 9
MS SOLANO: 10
Q. I'm going to take you for a moment back to one of the questions I asked you 11
concerning the training on procedure and identification and more specifically 12
whether it touched on the question of age of the children. 13
And you answered, "Of course, yes." 14
And then I asked you: "Can you explain what you mean?" 15
And then you said: "Well, while working with unaccompanied children there are a 16
certain set of questions, very detailed, that are being asked to the child ..." And then 17
there's some confusion as to whether -- whether these questions played a role in 18
establishing the age of the child and whether -- or how these questions were used or 19
not used depending on whether the child was able to provide his or her age. Do you 20
recall what you were talking about? 21
A. Mm-hmm. 22
Q. Can you explain again? 23
A. Yeah, some of the -- of the question are also formulated in the case of children 24
who are very young. It may happen that agency come across children who are 25
below -- I don't know, who cannot talk, so questions would then be asked to the 1
person who would have the child, would take care about the child. Does that -- no? 2
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Mr Gosnell. 3
MR GOSNELL: May I just put on the record what I heard? I don't think there will 4
be any dispute. 5
MS SOLANO: Please. 6
MR GOSNELL: I believe that the witness said for those children who were not able 7
to provide their age, instead of saying those children who were able to provide their 8
age. 9
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: It seems logical. 10
Madam Witness, could you confirm. 11
THE WITNESS: Yes. 12
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: I think it's clear the explanation given now by Madam 13
Witness. 14
Ms Solano, please proceed. 15
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. And thanks to my colleague for helping 16
keep the transcript accurate. 17
Q. Madam, you were talking to us about this case of the child who had already 18
been demobilised once by SOS Grands Lacs and who had thereafter been associated 19
with the UPC. I just want to make sure I understand you. When you spoke to the 20
child, how recently had the child demobilised from the UPC? 21
A. I cannot recall. This must be in my notes, but -- I would believe that it was 22
quite recent, but to give you an exact time period, I cannot recall. 23
Q. And is it correct, as this weekly suggests, that this child informed you that 30 24
young persons, including minors, would have joined voluntarily or sent by their 25
families the UPC training camp located in Rwampara? 1
A. I'm sorry, I'm reading. Yes, this is correct. 2
Q. And is it correct, as this report indicates, that according to this child the Hema 3
families were still, and I quote, "very much into resuming the fights, and especially 4
now that Bunia security is ensured by someone else - MNF/MONUC, UPC could 5
intervene in the rest of the district with more forces"? 6
A. That was the child's opinion, yes. That's what he said. 7
Q. Do you remember the age of this child? 8
A. I -- I believe he was 17 but, yeah, not sure. 9
Q. And can we now talk about the second incident --10
A. Mm-hmm. 11
Q. -- that I turned your attention to relating 10 children who were recruited by the 12
UPC this month. Do you confirm that this is information that you had obtained at 13
the time that you produced this weekly? 14
A. Let me read. Yes, I confirm. 15
Q. Can the court officer turn to the final page of this weekly report, it's page 0037. 16
Is this page, madam, which is said "Annex" at the top, is it a part of your weekly 17
report? And what does it contain? 18
A. It contains a document I was mentioning before the -- the UPC decrees that we 19
never received in MONUC and that we -- that, yeah, that was broadcasted. 20
Q. And near the bottom where it case "Article premier" I'm going to quote. The 21
transcription says: 22
(Interpretation) "Under 18 years of age from this date are demobilised from the 23
FPLC." (Speaks English) End quote. 24
And does this, madam, conform to the transcript of this decree as it was relayed to by 25
your colleagues? 1
A. This is correct. 2
MS SOLANO: Your Honours, I seek to tender this document into evidence. 3
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Mr Gosnell, any objection? 4
MR GOSNELL: No, Mr President. 5
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: So this document is admitted into evidence as a 6
further Prosecution exhibit. 7
Ms Solano, please proceed. 8
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. I call document DRC-OTP-203-0319, tab 9
41. And it can be displayed publicly. 10
Q. Madam, do you recognize this document? 11
A. Yes, this is another of my -- of the weekly reports I wrote. 12
Q. Can we zoom to the bottom of the page, please. 13
Can you please read the -- to yourself the paragraph concerning "The Day of the 14
African Child"? 15
A. Yes. 16
Q. Tell me when you've read it. 17
A. Yeah. 18
Q. There is a reference there at the bottom of the first subparagraph to Madam 19
Pétronille Vaweka? 20
A. Yes. 21
Q. Who is that person? 22
A. She was -- she was leading the interim administration in Ituri. I don't recall her 23
exact title, whether she was president or another. 24
Q. And immediately below that there is a reference to a message having been 25
broadcasted on Radio Candip on the 16th by the Observatoire Intérimaire des Droits 1
Humains - (Interpretation) Interim Observatory for Human Rights - (Speaks English) 2
denouncing the recruitment of children under the age of 18 in the armed groups and 3
their use in hostilities and the incitement of children to tribal hatred, which is 4
susceptible of - I'm struggling for the word - to perpetuate the conflict in Ituri, 5
I believe is the translation. What was the Observatoire Intérimaire des Droits 6
Humains? 7
A. This is another of the structures that was created as part of the interim 8
administration in Ituri. It was a structure that was set up in order to monitor human 9
rights violations and promote human rights standards in the district. And this -- this 10
structure benefitted from the technical assistance from the human rights colleagues of 11
the MONUC. And we had also interaction with -- with the structure with regard to 12
child protection concerns. 13
Prior to 16 June, we had a specific meeting with members, together with child 14
protection organisation, in order to assist them with the promotion of child rights and 15
also for them to be present and vocal in the pacification process with regard to issue 16
pertaining particularly with children. 17
Q. Can you explain what the reference to the incitement of children to tribal hate 18
means, can you give us some context if you know? 19
A. Well, the reference is the Iturian context at that time where various groups were 20
fighting against each other on the basis of their ethnical background, or on any type of 21
reasons. We -- I mean, it was well known that some leaders, some teachers, some -- I 22
mean, individuals who were inciting, not only adults but children, to take into -- to 23
take part into this -- in these conflicts. And children were not spared by the conflict, 24
they were not considered as requiring a special protection, and it was obvious when 25
documenting the different fights, combats that took place all over -- all over the 1
district, so we thought that, you know, calling for children to become messenger of 2
peace could assist with the pacification process and assist in having a new generation 3
that would not be involved in -- in this type of, yeah, fights. 4
Q. Thank you. 5
MS SOLANO: Can we turn to the next page, please, bottom of the page. 6
Your Honours, and I would like to, because I'm going to be showing the witness 7
several more documents consecutively, I would like to supply her with a binder that 8
contains the documents listed in our --9
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: All right. 10
MS SOLANO: -- on our list. 11
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Court officer, please assist. 12
MS SOLANO: Bottom of the page, please. We are on the document at tab 41. 13
And at the bottom of the second page, page -- the page that ends with ERN 0320, that 14
part of the report covers "Monitoring Activities." And subtopic II.2 refers to "Sexual 15
Abuse/Exploitation." 16
Q. Can you please read that whole paragraph which continues into the next page. 17
A. Mm-hmm. 18
Q. And can the court officer please move to the next page and display the top of 19
the page. 20
A. Yes. 21
Q. Madam, at the top of the third page, 0321, there is a reference to five elements of 22
UPC entering into, redaction, house located in quartier Lumumba, on the night of 23
16/17 May, having kidnapped the young teenage girl, in parentheses, (14) from a 24
Gegere father and a Bira mother, and all raped her several times in a container located 25
in the front of the site. 1
How did this information find its way into this weekly report? 2
A. Oh well, that was -- I received the testimony of the person who provided the 3
information, so I reported it. 4
Q. What does the number 14 in parentheses indicate? 5
A. The age of the girl who was victim of the rape. 6
Q. And just to make sure I -- there's no misunderstanding, who gave you the 7
information? 8
A. I believe it was the father. 9
Q. Lower down on that same page, under subheading, "II.4 Recruitment and Use 10
of Child Soldiers," can I ask you to read the first half of that subparagraph relating to 11
the kidnapping of a 17-year-old boy. 12
A. Yes. 13
Q. And who was the source of this information? 14
A. It's stated that the father came to MONUC to provide the information. 15
Q. Does that accord with what you remember? 16
A. Honestly, no, I don't recall this specific incident. Well, I don't recall whether I 17
did talk to the father or how this information was brought to my attention. No, 18
I don't remember. 19
Q. Do you recall having been aware of this incident? 20
A. Oh, yes. Yeah. Obviously, yes. 21
Q. On the next page, page 0322, there is a reference on the last paragraph to Save 22
the Children, UNICEF and MONUC Protection agreeing that a response should be 23
given to the UPC latest, in quotation marks, "movements". Do you confirm that this 24
information is correct? 25
A. I need to read. 1
Q. Please. 2
A. Yes, this is correct. 3
Q. And on the last page of this document, 0323 -- on the last page of the document, 4
0323, can you tell us what we see there? 5
A. Oh, this is -- this is the same decree communiqué that we were talking about, 6
the UPC 1 that was broadcasted through Radio Candip. 7
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document into evidence. 8
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Defence counsel, any objection? 9
MR GOSNELL: None, Mr President. 10
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Well, then this document DRC-OTP-0203-0319 is 11
admitted into evidence as a further Prosecution exhibit. 12
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, we could break now if you wish, or I could go with 13
one more document at the Chamber's convenience. 14
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: But I guess it will need more than two minutes, so it's 15
probably --16
MS SOLANO: Yes. 17
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: -- better to break now. All right. 18
So we break now for 30 minutes and we will reconvene half past 11. 19
THE COURT USHER: All rise. 20
(Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.) 21
(Upon resuming in open session at 11.31 a.m.) 22
THE COURT USHER: All rise. 23
Please be seated. 24
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Before we continue, the Chamber was informed that 25
Mr Levine would like to address us and in private session. 1
Mr Levine, do you want to address us in the presence of Madam Witness or in her 2
absence? 3
MR LEVINE: Mr President, in the presence of the witness is fine. Thank you. 4
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: All right. 5
Then, court officer, let's move into private session now. 6
(Private session at 11.32 a.m.) 7 (Redacted) 8 (Redacted) 9 (Redacted) 10 (Redacted) 11 (Redacted) 12 (Redacted) 13 (Redacted) 14 (Redacted) 15 (Redacted) 16 (Redacted) 17 (Redacted) 18 (Redacted) 19 (Redacted) 20 (Redacted) 21 (Redacted) 22 (Redacted) 23 (Redacted) 24 (Redacted) 25
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Page redacted- Private session 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
(Redacted) 1 (Redacted) 2 (Redacted) 3 (Redacted) 4 (Redacted) 5 (Redacted) 6 (Redacted) 7 (Redacted) 8 (Redacted) 9 (Redacted) 10
(Open session at 11.38 a.m.) 11
THE COURT OFFICER: We're in open session, Mr President. 12
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Now, Ms Solano, please proceed. 13
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. 14
THE COURT OFFICER: Could you please confirm the level of confidentiality of the 15
document, please? 16
MS SOLANO: Public. 17
Q. Madam, it's a document at tab 2 of your binder. 18
A. I'm there. 19
Q. Please tell me whether you recognize this document? 20
A. This is one of the weekly report I wrote while in Ituri. 21
Q. And it's a report for 6 July 2003? 22
A. Correct. 23
Q. If you can turn to the second page, 0047, on the bottom of the page there is a 24
section among the "Monitoring Activities" dealing with "Sexual Abuse/Exploitation." 25
And if I can ask you to read the first paragraph relating to two rapes of young girls, 1 please. 2 A. Yes. 3
Q. And do you recall, madam, to whom in the child protection section these two 4
rapes were reported to? 5
A. To me. 6
Q. Do you recall in relation to the second report, which is referred to in the last 7
three lines of that paragraph, relating to a 15 year old girl raped three times by UPC 8
soldiers, on 24, 30 May and 23 June, who the source of that information was? 9
A. This was the girl herself. The way I wrote the next sentence, when I state that 10
she was immediately brought to MSF for medical check means that I -- I think that 11
I recalled I did bring the child and probably an adult who was with -- together with 12
her to the MSF clinic. 13
Q. On the next page, 0048, there is a section dealing with the "DDR of Congolese 14
Child Soldiers". 15
A. Mm-hmm. 16
Q. What does that mean, DDR? 17
A. Disarmament, Demobilisation and Reintegration of child soldiers. 18
Q. And what was that? 19
A. It referred to a process, usually a programme that would ensure that children 20
are being disarmed, demobilised formally and reintegrated with their families. Was 21
that your question? 22
Q. Yes. And whose programme was that? 23
A. Usually we are referring to DDR for national programmes, programmes under 24
the governmental responsibility. 25
Q. In the first paragraph under that subtitle there is a reference to Save the 1
Children having several times been requested by the UPC Commander Alex to take in 2
charge 47 children UPC wanted to demobilise. And then I'm going to quote: 3
"SC advised him to inform the IPC so that a formal process could take place. This 4
advice was obviously not taken into consideration by the UPC." End quote. 5
Madam, can you explain what this information relates to? 6
A. As I stated, we -- there were interim measures that had been established for the 7
demobilisation of children in relation with Ituri as part of the discussions that took 8
place during the Ituri Pacification Commission. And they had been agreed to, 9
mainly by UNICEF was the lead agency in -- with regard to DDR, children DDR and 10
the government and that was, at this time, part also of the measures put in place for 11
Ituri and it had to be supervised or, yeah, undertaken by the interim administration. 12
As part of these provisions, the aim was for the interim administration to have full 13
responsibility about the process, that's why armed groups were requested to appoint 14
focal points to interact with interim administration with regard to particularly 15
children issues. I mean, yeah, children that were associated with the armed -- with 16
the armed groups. 17
Amongst these provisions were -- was also the fact that children had to be -- that 18
weapons were to be taken away from the children who were associated with the 19
groups, that armed groups committed also to not send them anymore in battlefields, 20
yeah, in a nutshell. 21
So UPC, as the other armed groups, were -- were to interact solely with interim 22
administration when it was about children who were associated with them. And the 23
fact that UPC contacted Save the Children for us was not the way it should have been 24
done. That's why at that time UPC advise -- Save the Children advised UPC to 25
interact with -- with interim administration. 1
Q. To your knowledge, was the UPC aware that there was this, I don't know if it 2
was an expectation or an obligation to interact for these purposes with the Ituri 3
interim administration? 4
A. There were this -- sorry, they were. These measures were clearly discussed 5
and agreed to during the Ituri Pacification Commission. 6
Q. How did you learn that Save the Children had been contacted by UPC 7
Commander Alex? 8
A. That was part of the information that was shared with me by Save the Children. 9
And they requested for advice. 10
Q. Was there any follow up to this indication of an intention to demobilise 47 11
children? Were these 47 children demobilised? 12
A. We were informed and I also met children who had been sent out of the groups 13
by some commanders. Yes. I mean, in that sense, yes, but the children were not 14
released in -- in a formal way. They were not released to -- I mean, they were not 15
brought to the care of the interim administration. There was nothing formal about 16
the way, the children were just left alone and sent away. 17
Q. Do you recall how many children were demobilised? 18
A. Well, we cannot use the word "demobilised" in this sense. They were sent 19
away from the groups. No, I mean, I must have reported it somewhere, but no. I 20
mean, several -- I don't know, yeah, certain number. 21
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document into evidence. 22
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Mr Gosnell? 23
MR GOSNELL: No objection, Mr President. 24
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: All right. Then document DRC-OTP-0001-0046 is 25
admitted into evidence as a further Prosecution exhibit. 1
Ms Solano, please proceed. 2
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. 3
I call DRC-OTP-0001-0049, the document at tab 3. 4
Q. Madam, can you please look at this document, take your time and when you're 5
ready, can you please tell me whether you recognize it? 6
A. Well, this is obviously one of the weekly report I produced. 7
Q. Can we turn to the second page of the document please, bottom of the page, to 8
the section dealing with DDR of Congolese child soldiers. And I will quote, the 9
document says: 10
"The UPC did indeed release an unknown number of child soldiers in the streets of 11
the city, without informing the ICP authorities or ensuring minimal protection 12
measures. Some of these children (22) were identified by churches and Caritas and 13
brought to one of their offices. Several others - 6 to date - joined the Save the 14
Children CTO." End quote. 15
Madam, does this correspond to the information that you had available at the time in 16
mid-July 2003? 17
A. Yes. 18
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document into evidence. 19
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Defence, any objection? 20
MR GOSNELL: Well I'm just pausing because I'm looking at the rest of the 21
document, but there's no objection. 22
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: All right. In such a case, this document is also 23
admitted into evidence as a further Prosecution exhibit. 24
Ms Solano. 25
MS SOLANO: Thank you, your Honour. 1
I call DRC-OTP-1051 -- sorry, DRC-OTP-0203-0324, tab 42. 2
Q. Can you confirm that you have in front of you a document that says "Week 3
29 - 20 July 2003"? 4
A. I confirm. 5
Q. And do you recognize this document? 6
A. Another of my weeklies. 7
Q. Can you please turn to the last page of the document, 0325. And in the section 8
dealing with the DDR of Congolese child soldiers, there is a reference starting on the 9
second line and I will quote: 10
"The centre is currently hosting 18 of the 25 children identified, all being ex-UPC, 11
male from 11 to 16, 16 being Hema, 1 Alur, 6 Baniari and 1 Nande." End quote. 12
Does this information correspond, Madam, to the information that you had available 13
to you at the dates of this report? 14
A. Yes. 15
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document into evidence. 16
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Mr Gosnell? 17
MR GOSNELL: Well, at this stage I object because I don't think there's been enough 18
explanation of what precisely, what information was available, does it accord 19
specifically to the propositions in this paragraph, does the witness remember or is it 20
just a question of looking at the document and saying it must have been this way? 21
So based on the lack of those details I object. 22
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Ms Solano, I think it would really deserve some 23
maybe further two, three questions to make those issues clear. 24
MS SOLANO: 25
Q. Madam, what is your recollection at this time of the children who had been 1
demobilised by the UPC in this period and what -- where they went, what happened 2
to them after they were released from the UPC? 3
A. From what I recall that some of these children went directly to some of the 4
centres, say whether save the children or Caritas. Some of them also came to 5
MONUC because they were -- some of them had been instructed by several of their 6
commanders to do so. I don't remember exactly how many, but some were, were 7
told that MONUC was setting up a school for children and that they should go there 8
in order to be given proper education. Some did not mention having received 9
specific instructions, so it would vary. 10
Was that your question? Do you want me to elaborate a bit further? 11
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: One question from my part: Those facts that some of 12
them being Hema, Alur, Baniari, Nande and also that some number of them attended 13
school, I guess you got this information on the basis of interviews, I believe, that those 14
children had no documents with them, so all those information are based on 15
their -- interviews with them; am I right? 16
THE WITNESS: This is correct. 17
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Ms Solano, any further question? 18
MS SOLANO: No, your Honour. Except I think the witness looks to me like she 19
was trying to add something. 20
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm not sure whether it's relevant but it may answer partly 21
your question. I don't remember exactly this particular figures or -- but I know that 22
they were accurate at that time. What I remember reading a little bit more in the rest 23
of the paragraph is that at this point of time discussion were taking place with Caritas 24
particularly about the follow-up of these children. I mean Caritas was an 25
organisation was new to child protection in that area and the staff working for them 1
at that time did not have prior experience of -- well, family tracing and also social 2
follow-up so that where a discussion taking place between experienced Save the 3
Children staff and exchanges between them so that adequate and similar procedures 4
were put in place so that the children going in one centre would benefit from the 5
same type of care than those attending another one. So that I would, you know, 6
really remember as such. 7
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Now, Mr Gosnell, do you still insist on your objection? 8
MR GOSNELL: No, Mr President. 9
PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: Then this document is admitted into evidence as a 10
further Prosecution exhibit. 11
Ms Solano, please proceed. 12
MS SOLANO: 13
Q. Madam, are you familiar with the name of a person called Kisembo? 14
A. Well, two of them, yes. 15
Q. And which ones do you know? 16
A. Well, I know about the person who was G3 within the UPC and another 17
Kisembo who was with PUSIC. But when referring to Kisembo usually we're 18
referring to the PUSIC person -- to the UPC person, sorry. 19
Q. You have said that the first Kisembo was a G3 within the UPC. What does that 20
mean? What was your understanding of that person's role in the UPC? 21
A. Responsible for military operations. 22
Q. And what did you know about this person? Did you ever have contact with 23
him yourself? 24
A. I never had a one-to-one meeting with him. I remember one phone call I did 25
with assistance of our security officer. I probably was part of certain CCAG meeting 1
he was part of. 2
Q. This phone call that you had with him with the assistance of your security 3
officer, what time period did it occur in? 4
A. That was most probably in 2003. Probably around this period June, July, 5
August. 6
Q. What was the topic of the conversation? 7
A. I wouldn't want to state something that is wrong, but I think it was about 8
attempt of re-recruitment of children who were accommodated in the centre, in one of 9
the CTO, if I'm not mistaken. But I've already provided information previously on 10
this case, I believe. 11
Q. Who had attempted to re-recruit children accommodated in one of the CTOs, 12
according to your recollection? 13
A. One of the UPC commander. I know that I was aware of his name at that time 14
and that I reported it to Commander Kisembo. 15
Q. And what was Commander Kisembo's reaction to this information? 16
A. I don't remember the exact words. I think he said he would look into it and 17
follow up and that he was -- I think that he mentioned that he was aware that it was 18
not proper, that it was not appropriate. Again, I cannot recall the exact words. 19
Q. Do you recall this attempt to re-recruit the children from the CTO, what had 20
happened? Why do you say that there was an attempt to re-recruit children? 21
A. I think that children had been directly approached while they were going out to 22
attend a football game or something of that sort. 23
MS SOLANO: Your Honour, I would like to show document DRC-OTP-0001-0055. 24
It's document 4, at tab 4. 25
