Analysis Step 6 Phase 3 – Interview with Senior Academic Member of CDVEC

The third phase of the data analysis process involved the final interview with the senior academic member of CDVEC. The main themes and findings from the other phases of the analysis were presented in eleven questions as follows (Appendix N).

Q1 How important do you feel training is for the School

Secretaries/Administrators to carry out the role effectively and what role does CDVEC play in providing this training for administrative Staff?

The interviewee described how training was critical because most

‘secretaries’ start out with a basic secretarial training and that the job is a lot more than that and requires

• dealing with the Public • dealing with students

• technical knowledge about the systems, software reports that have to be done

• Links with the Department

• dealing with teachers and staff people

The interviewee continued to describe how none of the roles described were part of a particular ‘secretarial’ type-training course. He/she asked the three following questions to answer this question

1) “Is there a need for training – Absolutely 2) Is it on-going - Yes

The researcher described how ‘school secretaries’ were requested to present information in more sophisticated forms and how the Microsoft packages they were trained in had moved on. The interviewee agreed how IT moves on.

“What you may have learned in your IT five or ten years ago has been passed out by new versions of the same software. Never mind the new ones but you also need training”. (A6)

The interviewee also stressed that there was more than just IT training required and referred to the Irish language training that was now required and how a number of the admin people had done that. The researcher commented on the fact that she herself had undertaken this training. He/she referred to the training required for dealing with the Public and felt that was a critical thing and how to deal with angry parents, and all those type of things that is not part of the standard training for ‘school secretaries’. Casanova (1991) and Trachman (1993) described the role played by the ‘school secretary’ in dealing with angry parents. Trachman (1993) made reference to one instance where they marched right by the ‘school secretary’ and into the principal’s office. One ‘school secretary’ described how she has to use her initiative and judge the situation in deciding whether she should disturb the principal at a meeting to say

“ I have a very narky parent in the office” (SE)

Q2. How important is Communication and Collaboration to assist school secretaries/administrators in their role?

The researcher explained that the following points were highlighted by ‘school secretaries/administrators’

• The need for an Open Forum Staff Day between the administrative staff in schools, centres and Head Office to discuss their needs and gain a better understanding of each other’s work.

• That notices coming from Head Office referred to Academic and Non-Academic staff. It was felt a better wording would be Academic, Administrative and Maintenance Staff.

• That it would be nice if notices coming from the Human Resource Department to staff members would address them by their Christian names. It was also suggested that a visit from the HR Manager to meet the administrative staff working in schools and colleges should be arranged in view of the fact that many administrative staff had never met the HR Manager.

• The need for ‘school secretaries’ to attend some part of the staff meeting that takes place two to three times a year for the benefit of Communication, Collaboration and Teamwork purposes and that it gives a sense of recognition and value as a staff member. Reference was also made that the senior porter because of his/her frontline position should also attend some part of the meeting that might help with improving processes in the school.

The interviewee was not convinced that administrative or maintenance staff should attend meetings with topics relating to the curriculum, syllabus, school trips, CAO applications or other issues and felt it was a waste of their time. He/she made reference to how the other side to it was there was never a meeting to which they could attend and communicate with staff and felt that this was wrong too. He/she stated that where issues are relevant to all parties of the meeting that

“it makes sense for them to attend but that they should not be

Reference was also made to how the ‘school secretary’ might be involved in sitting in on other meetings with the principal or assistant principals on issues like exam entries or when admissions are being discussed, where the ‘school secretary’ is the person who will collate all the information and press the button for exam entries.

Summary: The findings from this interview would concur with the mixed views of other stakeholders who felt that there should be some way of communicating or some part of the staff meeting that ‘school secretaries’ and maintenance staff should attend and how it may not be beneficial for them to attend a full staff meeting. It would also concur with the literature from Persaud (2005) of the important role communications played for those involved in ‘frontline’ services. Casanova (1991) in her observations described the time spent by ‘school secretaries’ in communicating with their principal would amount to about eleven minutes per day.

Q3 What are your views on the fact that the research has

highlighted the frontline position and pivotal role of the school secretary and how the changes that had taken place particularly since the introduction of the 1998 Education Act and the 2001 Vocational Amendment Act has impinged on their role?

The researcher outlined the changes identified by stakeholders, which are included in Appendix O of this study.

The interviewee commented on how the list goes on and felt that you could add a whole range of other things if you were to sit down and think about it.

“There is no doubt that the role that I would remember originally

of the ‘school secretary’ was very much an administrative, filing and narrow based role but that has changed utterly in the last five or ten years, as a result of all of the above and how much more knowledge the ‘school secretary’ has to have”. (A6)

The interviewee also described how ‘school secretaries’ are involved in many more processes that they would not have been involved in before, and has to write communication letters to all sorts of external agencies that did not even exist before and how all of this just illustrates the varied nature and the varied tasks that the ‘school secretary’ has to do.

“ A good ‘school secretary’ doing that is a huge thing”. (A6)

The interviewee made reference to the fact that finance was not on the list which was a huge area of responsibility for the ‘school secretary’ in a way that it wasn’t there before, just keeping track and records of substantial sums of money that moves through schools that didn’t move through them before. “So I would agree with you there are probably other things and it is a huge

thing” (A6)

The interviewee did advise however that the ‘school secretary’ should not try and become all things to every person and then made reference to how the researcher had described that the ‘school secretary’ had to have a knowledge of the ‘role of the Director of Adult Education’ and pointed out that the Director did not have to understand every single role within the whole school that they just need to know what is relevant to their own job and how that would be the same for the ‘school secretary’.

“The only person who has to know everything is the poor principal,

they are supposed to have a full understanding of every little corner, so I wouldn’t over push the role of the ‘school secretary’ they are

going to have to put boundaries on it”. (A6)

The researcher explained how in the summer time, the ‘school secretary’ is on their own in the college with huge volumes of e.mails, phone calls and people calling to the college seeking information. She also explained how the general public are now pressing the ‘school secretary’ for more

importance of knowing that there were boundaries to the level of knowledge and level of expertise of the ‘school secretary’.

“so if people are asking for ‘stuff’’ outside of what you should know then you actually stop and properly say, I don’t know but I can put you in touch with the person who would know”. (A6)

Q4 Do you think the role requires specialist skills and knowledge?

The researcher described how the role had changed over the last decade in terms of the skills and knowledge ‘school secretaries’ were now required to have to assist them in dealing with the new population of students, their needs and the needs of all stakeholders with whom they interact with during the normal course of their work.

The interviewee commented on how the role does require special skills and knowledge to carry out the role but stressed the need for the administrative person to be very clear where the job of the ‘school secretary’ starts and stops and made reference of the need for boundaries on the role.“ It’s not to

say that you wouldn’t be helpful, encouraging and sympathetic to everyone that comes in to you but there are a whole lot of things”. He/she made reference to how these special skills and knowledge are only in the context of carrying out a clear role that is their role and they don’t need the

knowledge of everybody else’s role or moving into that. He/she saw the special skills and knowledge required in the area of

• IT, People Skills and the knowledge of what the administration is supposed to do and not the fuller knowledge of the whole thing.

This would concur with the views of the principals who referred to how they felt the interpersonal skills were most important in the role. They also made reference to the need for more sophisticated IT skills and to understand

something about the methodology of education and what the school was trying to achieve. Two principals made reference to the fact that more specialist knowledge would be required if the ‘school secretary’ was operating at a higher level or in an advisory role to include

• Board of Management Meetings – Section 29 • Knowing something on Protocol and Procedures

• Financial Monitoring Function on producing a lot of reports • Public Expectation – Service Levels in the college for handling a

complaint- recording it and responding quickly to the public who have little tolerance for things being done slowly

• A role in Health and Safety

• More information reports could be extracted from CIMS/Facility system – teachers don’t have access to this system

• The Information Management system how the whole system could step forward and involve the integration of the office function • Garda Vetting Aspects for Students Doing Work Experience.

This would also concur with the views of one other principal and the views of ‘school secretaries’ who felt the role should be at a higher grade and how there should be progression routes in the school area for them to move to. Other principals made reference to the wealth of information ‘school secretaries’ have, and how this should be tapped into and commented on how they are an “under used and under valued resource” (PE)

The interviewee referred to the question do you require specialist skills and knowledge to carry out the role and stated

“ I would be focusing more on the people skills that assist in dealing with the hundred new students who come in the door every year with some unique characteristic that you never met before.” (A6)

Q5 Do you think there is a need for the broadening of the current administrative structures in the schools and colleges to

withstand the new developments and the nature of the workload undertaken by ‘school secretaries’?

The researcher explained the reason for this question related to the Rochford Review (2002) that resulted in ninety-six per cent of the up-gradings above that at Grade IV level in CDVEC Head Office. She referred to the fact that it was agreed at the same time that an independent study be carried out which now eight years later has never happened. The interviewee explained how he/she did not know enough about the Rochford Review (2002) and commented on how there is an agreed structure for administrative posts that is determined outside of the VEC.

“So it is not entirely within the gift of a school or a VEC to kind of acknowledge contribution through promotions”. (A6)

The researcher explained that she had carried out an interview with a senior member of IMPACT Trade Union who informed the research that the terms of reference for a review of Rochford (2002) had been agreed prior to the moratorium in the Public Service. IMPACT hope to commence this study when the present financial crisis improves. The interviewee acknowledged that if there was upgrading to middle management everybody would love that but commented on how this was determined nationally and was not sure if it was a realistic objective.

Q6. Is there a correct title for administrative staff working in the schools and colleges of CDVEC?

The research highlighted the need for professional development for ‘school secretaries’ and ‘administrators’ to withstand the challenges presented for

the future. She described how in schools and colleges administrative staff are often referred to as ‘school secretaries’ particularly in the mainstream area, whereas in the Further Education colleges they are referred to as ‘administrators’. She commented on how this was not the grade

administrative staff had been appointed to and how in the CDVEC ‘Staff Handbook’ they are referred to as ‘administrative staff’. It is seen as

‘outdated’ and ‘old fashioned’. She described how reference was also made to this in light of their image and public service role.

The interviewee agreed that the term ‘school secretary’ was ‘outdated’ and how it sounded more like it was linked to a particular person opposed to a more general administrative role

“ I am not sure if there is a correct or agreed title, but I would far

prefer to have the people who work in the schools to be called ‘administrators’ as it sound like a far more appropriate word than ‘school secretary”. (A6)

The researcher explained that in two instances the principals did not like the word ‘administrator’. She described where one principal stated, “well you

see they are not administrators as the administration refers to more than one person and involves the principal, deputy and the administrative staff”(PE). The researcher also explained how in the USA the literature refers to the principal as ‘administrator’ and how this can cause some confusion.

The interviewee replied how in Ireland there is a difference between the two. “There is academic and management staff and that is where I would

place Principals. I would call them academic and management staff, I would not call them administrators. The interviewee went on to describe how an administrator is a person who works particular systems and does what is organised and agreed. A manager drives it and organises it and

decides and makes managerial types of decisions and he/she felt that was the purpose of the principal role.

“I would move away from ‘school secretary’, I don’t think it gives full justice in terms of when you hear that word and when you think of what the actual job entails. The word does not do the job justice so I would move to the word ‘administrator”. (A6)

Q7 Do you feel the leadership styles exercised by school/college principals is a factor in determining the role that the school secretary/administrator plays and the impact they have?

The researcher described how school principals made reference to how the role of the ‘school secretary’/administrator was to a large extent determined by the leadership role of the school principal. She also referred to how the analysis of the research had highlighted the supportive role ‘school

secretaries’ gave to principals and the breadth of knowledge and vision they required to do the job. She described how reference was made to how they were an ‘under valued’ resource and if treated and used properly they were vital to the ‘smooth running’ of the school. They were described as

impacting on the ‘culture’ and ‘ethos’ of the school and how the senior person can create the right environment for the school. Principals referred to the need for students to have access to the office to deal with various needs they have, reference was also made to how the ‘modern era’ had crept up on schools and the impact it had on workloads.

The interviewee described how if you go into any school the single most important person in the school in the sense of determining the feel and ‘ethos’ of the school is the principal.

“when you go from one school to another different school,

it feels differently and teachers in different schools act differently, but it is hugely created by the way the principal goes about their business”. (A6)

The interviewee described how styles can vary on a range from one to one hundred from “strictly ‘authoritarian’ to the totally ‘collaborative’ inclusive

kind of principal” and described how the effects of the strictly authoritarian style will almost inevitably affect teachers, admin staff and maintenance staff. Whereas on the other hand if you have an inclusive principal the school administrators will be part and parcel of discussions around things as they are organised and referred to that as a ‘healthy environment’.

“If we had a view from here it would be that modern management is much more collaborative in nature while people still have their responsibilities, it is much more inclusive and it much more values the opinions of everybody and that is the best kind of style for this kind of age in that school administrators have a positive role, a valued role where they are encouraged to make their contributions and that is the style we would like to see”. (A6)

This would concur with the views of Persaud (2005) and Bush (2008) who stress the very important role played by leaders in developing others.

Q8 How can ‘school secretaries/administrators best meet the needs of all stakeholders?

An analysis of the student survey forms returned by students who participated in the research was presented to the interviewee. Similar