PRESENTATION OF THIS ISSUE

a) I must also add that I found your presentation of this debate to be slanted. By selected words and quotes you clearly favor Nalini Kanta prabhu’s view over that of Shyamasundara’s although you present yourself as merely trying to find out the facts and get an objective decision.

Nalini’s reading is a very nice glorification of Srila Prabhupada. The problem I have with it is that it does not match the birth time given by Srila Prabhupada.

Shyamasundara’s reading is not, as you have stated,

“just a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo, word jugglery.” Astrology is an very exact and complex science.

Although Shyamasundara’s reading was technical, he presented it that way so that the reader can

understand the detailed considerations that went into the reading. I am sure that if you ask him for a simple, non-technical reading, he will be only too happy to oblige.

b) I’d like to make a point about the use of quotes from astrological books about planets in particular houses and signs. You have Nalini Prabhu quoting the symptoms of a native with Jupiter in the 9th (as it would be if Sagittarius was rising) with many auspicious qualities.

Then he gives a quote for Jupiter in the 8th (as it would be with Capricorn rising) as follows: “The native with Jupiter in the 8th house (Cap. rising) does not stay with his father; always ailing; mean and low, miser, friendless, debauchee, wicked, thin, dies of cholera, short-lived, base

acts, a devil.”

However, in Nalini’s own book he contradicts this. A Capricorn rising makes Sagittarius in the 12th house. 12th Lord is Jupiter who is posited in the 8th. This is what Nalini says about 12th Lord Jupiter in the 8th:

“Only good words are used in texts describing this position, like devotion to God, charitable in heart, kind speech etc. Small inheritance is to be expected. Time spent learning useless things may occur.”

(I wonder how much Srila Prabhupada was taught at Scottish Churches College was actually useful to him?).

Personally I have Jupiter in the 8th (although I have Cancer rising) but I don’t think that the above negative description fits me. Maybe I am deluding myself here but I sure don’t feel like a devil although I might have become one if Srila Prabhupada hadn’t picked me up.

I am curious as to why Nalini ignores his own words and why, when presenting his readings, he states only the negative quotes on certain planetary positions that he doesn’t want to support, when in fact there are positive ones as well.

I am not an astrologer. I can’t read charts to save my life. But I think I understand the basic principles that come into play. The point I am making here is that astrology is not simplistic. There are many factors involved with planets, signs and houses all modifying each other by their various aspects.

You can’t simply say that the position of one planet in a particular house means a person’s character is bound to be set in a particular way.

So my request is that if you want to act as moderator of this debate you do so from a strictly neutral stance. It does not help the untrained observer if you deliberately try to slant things in a particular way.

I look forward to hearing more from all sides on this issue because I think it is important that we come to some official understanding on the birth time of His Divine Grace.

Thank you for including me in your postings.I remain your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa

6.5.3 Hari Sauri Letter #3 to Hrisikeshananda

[Comments: Points out that Nalini has purposely slanted his arguments to predicate the minds of uninformed readers. Points out dangerous mentality of those who want to quickly ignore what Srila Prabhupada has said about himself.]

From hsauri-afn.org

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:19:03 -0400 Subject: reply to Hrishi lett of Oct 5th

>Dandavats. AGTSP! Please do not take offense to my last message. But it is frustrating >whenever Nalini or I send you any views, because you cast them aside like so much >drivel. You say that Nalini’s report to the GBC is “impressive” yet you disregard it. >Nalini’s report is “impressive” because Srila Prabhupada’s chart is so nicely presented!

Thanks. I got your letter just after I sent out my reply to your Oct. 4 one. No, I don’t take any offense, and I hope you don’t either. We are all Godbrothers and we are all trying for the same thing. So

disagreement may be there on a particular issue but that does not impugn upon a person’s identity as an eternal servant of Krsna. I hope that some day I will be fortunate enough to spend all eternity with you, Nalini, Shyama and all other followers of Srila Prabhupada, dancing with Lord Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana. Pray for me that it happens!

As far as the issue goes, actually I don’t think of your arguments as drivel. But I want to be very convinced about something before I accept it. And as I have previously said, I don’ find Nalini Kanta prabhu’s reading of the Capricorn rising chart to be an accurate reflection of its contents. His reading of the Sagittarius chart is impressive to be sure, but he hasn’t done justice to the Cap. rising chart in any way. He has dismissed it on elementary grounds — the 8th house is evil and inauspicious, and Capricorn is a sudra rising sign, and thus it couldn’t possibly be correct — and painted it in completely negative evocations.

This is done quite deliberately to predicate the minds of uninformed readers against the possibility that 4:00 pm could actually be the correct birth time.

I just don’t buy that. I am no astrologer, not by any means, but even from the basics that I have grasped, I know that each house can have both positive and negative effects. For instance, Nalini neglects to mention that the 8th house is a house of moksa. Far from been always evil, a well disposed 8th house can be a powerful force for the liberation of the soul. So I want to see an actual reading which explains properly the situation of each planet and house in the 4:00 pm chart.

I am not very interested in attempts to convince me that the chart is entirely inauspicious and that to support it makes a person an offender to Srila Prabhupada when I know that just isn’t so. Let Nalini do a proper reading of the Capricorn chart and we can then compare that to the one done by Shyamasundar prabhu. Ashu Tosh Ojha has also done one and I expect that to arrive here in Alachua within the next few days. I have also taken the liberty of asking another devotee astrologer, Jagadisananda prabhu, if he wants to do one.

If we find that a 4:00 pm chart cannot adequately describe Srila Prabhupada’s character and activities, then we can consider other possibilities. But we must first consider the chart cast at the time that Srila Prabhupada himself preferred—4:00 pm. Which bring me to the next

point in your letter:

>Why do you insist on a 4 PM birth time just because HDG said it? But you disregard that >HDG also said that he had Moon in Gemini (which all astrologers know is NOT TRUE). >Prabhupada said so many things at different times!....

>If we take “everything” that HDG said as the one and only truth (like born-again >Christians) then we devotees are bound to be confused by so many conflicting “truths,” >because HDG said so many things to different devotees.

I always tend to accept things just because Srila Prabhupada said it. I wouldn’t be his disciple if I didn’t. It is not a question of fanaticism but rather one of faith. It is my duty to try to understand what Prabhupada says even if it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t think it wise to pursue the tack that if something Prabhupada said doesn’t fit my view of things, that I am then at liberty to change it.

I spent enough time with Srila Prabhupada to know that he did change things and sometimes re-adjusted things when he saw that his original instructions were not, or could not be carried out, or that he

had been misinformed. So I think I have some grasp of the application of time, place and circumstance and that many things that Prabhupada said are not “etched in stone” — although many are.

But when I see consistency over a period of time in something Prabhupada said, then I accept that Prabhupada means what he says and that becomes a standard which is not open to reinterpretation.

Therefore, as I have already pointed out, because Prabhupada repeatedly used 4:00 pm or after as his birth time for the calculation of his horoscope, I have a tendency to accept that and I am very wary of attempts to change it simply because it doesn’t fit with what someone else thinks is right.

>Why don’t you simply compare the two different readings and judge for yourself which >one is more like Prabhupada? We don’t need to be rocket scientists (or astrologers) to >listen to a simple reading; especially since we have already seen Prabhupada’s pastimes it >should be easy to judge. Why not just let the two charts be judged by the GBC?

A good idea and I am doing that. I have seen both readings (if you haven’t seen Shyama’s yet I think he will be putting it out very soon) and as long as the GBC are presented with accurate analysis of the charts then they’ll be able to make a sagacious decision. However, bear in mind that most of them are not astrologers, or even interested in astrology as far as I know. So at least they should be given something that they can rely upon, and I don’t think Nalini’s Capricorn rising reading fits in that category.

Nalini should redo it if he wants it to be taken seriously.

>In any case, if the GBC are fooled into thinking that Prabhupada’s Jupiter (GURU) is in >the evil 8th house with a sudra sign rising (disregarding the basics of Astrology), then I >for one will never show such an inferior horoscope to the public for fear of censure. And >I will be embarrassed if ISKCON promotes such a clearly faulty chart.

I believe you are the one who acted as the catalyst in this debate so at least, after having put it to the GBC, you should have the confidence to accept their decision, if they can actually come to one. I don’t know why you would want to go to all this trouble (and put so many others to so much trouble) if you aren’t prepared to accept the outcome. If the only acceptable outcome for you is a finding in favor of your admitted slant to Nalini’s Sagittarius rising chart, and a finding in favor of the 4:00 pm chart means the GBC has been fooled, then what’s the point of all this discussion?

I hope that in engaging in this discussion I haven’t committed any offenses. If I have, kindly forgive me for that — its my natural tendency and as hard to shake off as it is to stop breathing. Nevertheless by the blessings of the Vaisnava’s even the impossible can become a fact, so my humble request is that you show some mercy on this fallen soul so that I can attain the shelter of the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.

Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa.

By the way, if you are not aware of it, I send copies of all my correspondence with you to Badrinarayana, the GBC body conference and Shyamasundar (and sometimes to the astrology conference), on Badri’s request, in order to keep everyone “in the loop.” Nalini Kanta prabhu unfortunately is only in contact by regular mail and its just not possible to keep him up to date on things. By the time he receives something about a dozen other exchanges have taken place, so I hope he gets on-line soon so we can include him.

6.6 Hari Sauri Letter Reply to Kavicandra Swami

[Comments: Points out that real issue is not for the GBC to pick a chart according to what sounds good. But the actual issue is that unless Capricorn inadequately describes SP only then should other possibilities be considered. Points out that we should not “disregard anything SP said or did in order to favor something we think is better.” Exposes fallacy of minimizing Srila Prabhupada’s knowledge of Vedic cultural activities.]

From hsauri-afn.orgThu Oct 12 09:15:44 1995 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 06:13:26 -0400

Subject: reply to Kavicandra Swami let. of Oct 10

Dear Kavicandra Maharaja, Pamho. AgtSP.

Yes, now Hrishikesananda is out of the loop. Although I appreciate his involvement in bringing this issue out, I am also hoping that now we might be able to go beyond the Nalini vs Shyama mode that he presented it in, and consider the issue free of self-interests.

RE: your questions:

>What time does the Capricorn raising end and Sagittarius begin. Is half past 3 the cut off >or does it go closer to4??? Maybe you know an astrologer who can tell you.

According to Shyama (and its easy to verify this if you have an astrology program) Nalini adjusted the time to 3:30 pm because that puts the lagna (rising) sign half a degree into Sagittarius. A few minutes later and you are in Capricorn. [Actually according to very accurate computer calculations Capricorn starts at 3:30 PM. You have back the time up to 3:29 as the very ending of Sagittarius. This means that in a matter of moments, not minutes, it changes from one sign to the next. This, by the way is a very weak position to be in—no positional strength. I will discuss this in the Sagittarius chart.]

>It seems like Hris wants to base everything on the raising. My feeble understanding is >that sometimes strong auspicious things are countered by many factors and vice versa.

Yes, you are correct. That’s why I called Nalini’s reading on the Capricorn chart simplistic and misleading. He tries to reduce it to a couple of simple factors i.e. 8th house is inauspicious and evil and therefore Jupiter couldn’t possibly be good there; and Capricorn is a sudra sign and therefore couldn’t possibly be the rising sign. This is so generalized that it is almost worthless.

As I pointed out before, Nalini in his own book says that when Sagittarius is in the 12th house, as it is with Capricorn rising, its Lord, Jupiter is in the 8th—and Lord of the 12th in the 8th only has good things said about it.

This is because 8th and 12th houses are actually houses of moksa. Materially speaking to have a lot of activity in these houses can be a disaster, but spiritually it can be very purifying, depending on which planets are in them. An exchange between the 12 and 8 is actually a very

good spiritual indicator, and this is what you get in SP’s Capricorn rising chart.

Anyway, Shyama has done a lengthy analysis of this and he’ll be putting it out within a week or so and it will give you a better chance to see what the chart actually says.

Personally I’d like to see Nalini do more thorough and balanced reading of the Capricorn chart.

By the way, I did ask Shyama to do a reading on the Sagittarius chart and he will oblige shortly.

Ojha has also done a chart on Capricorn rising and that is being transcribed right now. Interestingly, Tamal Krsna Maharaja noted this is in his diary in 1977 about Ojha’s original Capricorn rising chart:

The 30th July entry: “Srila Prabhupada had asked for us to consult an astrologer regarding whether or not he should travel. This afternoon reports came from three different astrologers. These were presented by Yasodanandana Swami, Dr. Sharma, and Bhakti Prema Swami. I had each give their reports separately so that we could see how they agreed and how they differed. Bhakti Prema’s was useless, Dr. Sharma’s was fair, and Yasodanandana Swami’s most reliable. But all three agreed on one point: the next two months would be the most difficult of Srila Prabhupada’s life and travelling was to be avoided. The astrologer Yasodanandana consulted recommended the wearing of a blue

sapphire.

“4th August entry: ”After lunch Srila Prabhupada had me read again the astrologer’s report brought by Yasodanandana Maharaja. Prabhupada found it to be quite accurate regarding his past.”

It is surely significant that SP felt Ojha’s chart reading to be “quite accurate regarding the past.” Only SP could know whether a chart was accurate or not, because only he knew himself. If SP accepted Ojha’s Capricorn rising chart then I don’t know why we have a problem with it. Is SP the authority on his own chart or not?

And this leads me to my own question. Hrishikesananda prabhu has all along attempted to portray the current issue as one of the GBC having to choose which chart is better, the Capricorn rising or the

Sagittarius rising. However I don’t feel this is the actual issue here. My contention is that unless the Capricorn rising chart based on 4:00 pm cannot adequately describe the character and activities of SP then it should be accepted, simply because SP consistently favored that time. And now Tamal Krishna’s diary gives evidence (above) that Prabhupada did in fact feel it to be accurate. Not only that but Ojha was very close in his calculation of SP’s disappearance, so this adds to the accuracy factor.

Nalini’s rationale for adjusting the chart in the first place was his inability to accept that Capricorn rising with Jupiter in the 8th could properly describe SP. If this is seen not to be true, there is no need to make any adjustment. Therefore the question of comparing the Capricorn rising chart with any other chart, Sag. rising or a-Sag. rising, simply does not arise.

I just feel we have to be very very careful about disregarding anything SP said or did in order to favor something we think is better. It sets dangerous precedents. Hrishikesananda says in his last letter:

>>9) [Quoting me here] “I take it that he (Srila Prabhupada) was certainly conversant >>enough with his own chart to know that setting the time back a half hour would change >>the rising sign.”

>—[Hrishis’s ans.] I do not accept this statement; how could H.D.G. know such a >specialized astrological calculation? That is unsubstantiated speculation!

The implication of Hrishikesananda’s above statement is that he believes SP was ignorant of his own chart. However, SP was brought up in a culture where astrology is used regularly and the few exchanges we had with him on it showed that he was very conversant with the terms and concepts, even if he wasn’t an astrologer himself. Pradyumna prabhu did have some exchanges with SP about astrology which led him to believe that SP knew a lot about it.

The implication of Hrishikesananda’s above statement is that he believes SP was ignorant of his own chart. However, SP was brought up in a culture where astrology is used regularly and the few exchanges we had with him on it showed that he was very conversant with the terms and concepts, even if he wasn’t an astrologer himself. Pradyumna prabhu did have some exchanges with SP about astrology which led him to believe that SP knew a lot about it.