CJ Gung Ji, steps 15 and 16

CJ

This post brings us up to date with where we left off last time. I know everyone is busy with New Year celebrations and such but PLEASE someone else chime in here, I feel like I’m talking to myself…

The discussion points from last time:

(Edit: Again a repost of information from the Draft threads. Please note however that new posts have been added after this repost)

---AndyT

Moderator Posts: 561 From: USA

Registered: Oct 2001

I'm afraid I'm quite ignorant of the correct names of 90% of the movements myself, but here goes....

Next Movement

After the third double palm strike,

1. Double stabbing knife hand forward, palms down.

2. Draw the elbows down into a sinking bridge while the handsa$$ume the Fun Kiu position. (Like catching a baseball bat being swung at you).

3. Then (Tricky part here) twisting the forearms over to face the palms backward while raising the arms to bring the upper arm parallel with the floor. I call this double upper forearm block with knife hands. Someone please give me a better name if you know it.

4. Double back fist down and out to the sides. Finally bringing your fists back into chamber.

I see a bunch of blocking apps here myself. Of course, blocks are also strikes.

Andy T

If you're a Klingon, then by God BE a Klingon!

http://clik.to/tulenko

My movements are fairly similar to the ones discussed so far.

After the series of three elbow / palm strikes I we do the final raised elbow followed by the linking slap block into the two spear hand strikes. As LGH said, like you skip of the top of the hit, redirecting it while continuing on to strike with the finger tips.

Then Fingers Support Heaven as you drop the elbows and pull the wrist back a bit as you sink the arms. I look at the next Four throws of Lance Pierce Hand as a quick series of clearing moves for the wrists. It’s a little difficult to describe the exact movements but suffice to say that the crossing of the wrists set up the next clearing motion using the backhand hook of the tiger claw. The hands come back to the waist, then up to the chest in fists to set up the double Fun Gum Kiu / Golden Hammer Fist.

Applications are pretty straight forward. The two spear hand strikes should be directed to soft body and vital targets (try to avoid hitting bones with your finger tips) and can be used either singularly or together. The Fingers Support Heaven can be applied as a response to a grab, drop your arm and suck you opponent in. Also it should be noted that the alignment and slight tension are a highly energetic posture both when you do it in front or earlier when you did it to the sides, breath out while doing it and sink the chi.

The Fan Gam Kiu / Golden Hammer Fist can be looked at as a break to a bear hug when done together or when it’s used with a single arm it strikes to the neck/face/clavicle. It can also be used singularly in conjunction with a grapple as you tie up an arm then strike the same arm or as you pull the arm you expose the neck and head. Using the Metal Element metaphor, it just hammers through what ever you put in the way.

CJ

---AndyT CJ,

Thank you so much for your posting these threads.

I've been bed ridden for the last two weeks with a respritory infection. I've been able to post a comment here and there, but not as much as usual.

AndyT

It's obvious that much of what's been covered so far is not only exercise, but also clearing movements designed to get you deep inside your enemies guard. These so far have been doubles, or both hands, but as discussed before, this is to train both hands equally and does not mean that you must use both hands at once.

Looking back over what's been covered so far, I can see quite a bit of detail that was not so obvious before. It's been said that if you train forms only, you will not have good Kung Fu, but if you train the basics, you will have good Kung Fu. If one extracts the individual techniques that have been discussed so far, how much of the basics will someone be able to find? Enough to train with?

faht wing

i notice many who reply are to discuss the hand technics.

not much is said about the compression of the body. why is this?

AndyT

What do you mean? Please explain this compression.

monk quote:Originally posted by faht wing:

i notice many who reply are to discuss the hand technics.

not much is said about the compression of the body. why is this?

When you say body compression are you referring to "Tun To Fau Chum" (Swallow Spit Float Sink), four key concepts of fajing in other southern arts? If you are, would you elaborate on how these concepts are applied in gung gi.

BTW, I am new here.

faht wing

sorry my teacher says no to explain this on the internet.

but i'd like to hear others explain.

Sifuchuck

FW-(NOI)--but if your sifu doesn't want you to discuss the subject, wouldn't it be wrong for you to read about it from others? I mean if you are not allowed to share your information on a topic, doesn't it seem selfish to ask others to share theirs?

I've been very impressed by the openess of the "family" that meets here--but I wonder now, how much knowledge is being repressed, how many secrets are being kept from the rest of the family. Kinda makes you lose that warm and fuzzy feeling. FW--not directed at you--just inspired by your comment.

Which brings up another thought--which I'll put on another thread...

But to the Gung gi--I'm wondering about the "four throws of the piercing lance hands."

Is this the best translation? I don't see any lance hands after the second "four fingers to heaven." Maybe the four throws are the techniques after the first four fingers and the bik kiu sequence? Or hey (tongue in cheek) maybe they are these techniques that LSW didn't put in the book--that only like, five people in the world know, and their not talkin'!

AndyT

Now that you mention it, I do not have the 4 lance hands either. I can see lots of apps for them, and they would seem to fit.

And I'm wondering about the sink, swallow, spit, and float as well.

illusionfist

Tun To Fou Chum, haha you should have thought about that stuff about 12-13 postures back.

faht wing not being selfish.

sifu feels to stay away from the insults and headaches. he said also someone out there may read what i post and try it. that person can be hurt and not know it.

he says it like putting a air hose in someones mouth and adding preasure to their wind pipe. would that hurt someone or not?

i am only a student but has no other perspectives on the subject. my sifu doesnt mind me on the internet and ask him questions about what i read from the internet.

sometimes when he is here for dinner he adds his 2 cents on the forum.

he has a limit of 5 students he carries. all else interested is on a waiting list. of the 5 who does not train to standards are ask to leave to make room for those waiting to learn.

tparkersf Hi FahtWing,

I understand your position and I respect it. There are things that are appropriate for this forum and some things that are not. Some one could get hurt with some things.

Andy,

I will try to address the Rise, Sink, swallow, and spit. I am only slightly familiar with them and take it as a grain of salt. Hopefull someone will take exception to what I say and will add more to it. I think we all do it, but may not be specifically aware of them. They are used in many southern arts.

Sink- This is what it sounds like. The 1000lbs horse stance. You sink down your bridges to destroy the opponents structure and stop the force. Think going from a front stance to a horse while dropping and sinking into your horse.

rise/float- the opposite of sinking. You rise up or float. You use this to uproot your opponent. Any time you apply a upward vector you would be uprooting your opponent.

He can not get into a stable stance and is offbalance.

Spit- issues force outwards. Perhaps a double palm to the opponent. Maybe the butterfly palms were you redirect the force then spit it back out towards them with the palms.

Swallow- the sucking in or swallowing the force. If a punch comes in, you smother it but allow it to come inwards rather than deflecting it away. As if your swallowing the force.

This is how I understand them, but I don't claim it is authentic, just what I picked up.

Can any one else confirm or correct this?

monk This is how a white crane guy explained it.

sometimes, swallow-spit sometimes, swallow-sink sometimes, spit-float

or maybe swallow-spit-float-sink together.

Using LSW's fuhok Pic 23 as example.

You see Master LSW in a four coroner stance with both of his hands raised in the air holding the sky. If he raises out of that stance, he raised his center of gravity ("float"

and "swallow" breath). Next, he could do a sink-spit to generate power. If his opponent don't take this move seriously, he'll be seriously hurt.

DF

I was taught different from the posts above concerning Tun To Fou Chum.

The concepts has to do with body position and connection. In the Gar we are known for great power because of the body connection in our movements or as Haysafu refers it as "linking"; different word but same concept. We do all our movements as one unit. No move is just done with the hand without the body and the legs behind it. Nothing moves by itself, the body moves as one unit. Tun To Fou Chum describe the position of the body, even though these terms are not commonly use in the gar, you hear it more often in southern short hand such as bak mei. In any case, when we talk about body connection, breath is include as well, thus internal comes into play. This is true for all movements. I really don't want to go too much in describing it because it is hard to put the concepts into words, much easier shown than write.

Sifuchuck Hey

Hey--I realize that Hey--I haven't been contributing much to the gungi discussion--but two of my students and I spent 3 days in Sunnyvale going over details of gungi with Sifu Wing Lam this past August, and I'm still trying to digest all of the information.

I was so overwhelmed by the instruction that I feel less than qualified to comment in most cases--however, like many others on this forum, I find the gungi threads more than fascinating--quite addicting!

I want to interject a quote from AndyT at the beginning of this project--a reminder of the original intent to motivate and inspire:

AndyT

"In the spirit of the forum, I think it would be a good idea to take a form apart peice by peice and discuss it in detail. I would like to start with Gungji since it is a pillar form and contains all the various parts of Hung Gar. We can explain how to generate power, or how to express the power as we go along."

Those who can contribute--please do! And thank you!

monk

This is a description of "body compression" (taken from a goju site) that I think faht wing was referring to.

>>The explosive power is generated by using the whole body and then channelling and directing it into the opponent. In the initial stages a single shock wave is produced, hence the intent of 'the single killing blow'. In the higher levels this manifests as a series of continuos waves or vibrations. The source of this power is the from the hara or lower abdomen combined with contractions of the diaphragm (ie breathing). Crane boxing refers to this as 'shaking' or 'trembling', in the Chinese internal arts this explosive energy is called 'Fa Jing'.

This was a description given for the power develop from practicing sanchin (which I believe is a cousin of iron thread).

I believe swallow spit float sink is more than just body position, but also a series of breathing techniques in combination with body alignment. I don't think hung gar power comes from just proper aliagnment. The alignament is the first step. Then, the internal stuffs starts.

I guess I shouldn't expect you guys to talk about "body compression" here because it is advance stuff and absolutely deadly for the practitioner (if practiced wrong) and his opponent.

But, at least, tell the novices that gung gi isn't just a series of posture. When execute correctly (using body compression), each posture is absolutely deadly. I know sifu winglam said gung gi embodied all the principles of gung gi. But, if you point these principles out earlier, may be you can shorten the learning curve.

tparkersf Hi all,

Just trying to keep the discussion flowing.

Yes I think the power in Hung Gar is more than mere body position. But I beleive that is the foundation myself. The body is used to drive the techniques in order to put power behind them. If the techniques are practiced without the body backing it up, you would rely on isolated muscle groups and the techniques would fail. So the body is the first part, from what I understand. The same holds true for wing chun, which few can actually do. I can't speak for the higher levels as I am still learning the body structure.

I am not sure if San Chin is a cousin or not of Iron Wire. I think there are some similarities, but they may be further removed than what looks may say. I see a lot of

Hung Gar influence in Karate and at one time beleived that was the influencing style. I am not so sure anymore. From what I have read, it seems white crane was largly responsible for much of Karate's development. They even have a san chin form if I remember correctly. Does any one know if there is a connection between white crane and hung gar...other than just saying it all came from shaolin? The principles and techniques seem a bit different.

By Body compression I was thinking the rootedness. In the very begining we slightly bend the knees and seem to compact down for a very strong stable posture. Not sure if this is what was meant...or even if I am doing it right. LOL.

I have to agree with an earlier post that the sink float spit swallow is mostly used in Bak Mei and some other arts, from what I understand. But the principle applies to many styles. Breathing is always used in conjucntion with techniques, so I can see how breathing would relate to these four principles. I only know of them a little, but I was under the impression that it is a way of dealing with oncomming energy. You can sink it, float it, spit it, or swallow it. Maybe it is more abstract and it refers to much more.

Great topics.

monk Tom,

You are probably right. I got carry away with the relationship between iron thread and sanchin.

CJ