RHD Start with a small poll:

How many of us have practiced using this technique with a partner as a drill on a regular basis?

How many of us have used this technique in sparring on a regular basis?

How many of us have used this technique outside the kwoon in a real physical conflict?

How many of us are confident in the use of this technique in comparison to other movements from GGFFK?

My suspicions are that the number affirmative results to all of those questions will be very low.

Does that mean that it isn't a valid technique or expression of Hung Kuen? No, as our colleges have pointed out it is an expression of a skill.

However, because our forefathers added it to GGFFK, and/or wanted to highlight a certain skill does it mean that we must include it in our practice? No.

Will the inclusion or exclusion of this technique make someone's Hung less potent than another's? Doubtful.

I can say this: I don't practice or include this technique in my daily training. It's simply not practical for me to do so as there are plenty of other tools to choose from.

Sometimes I do wonder though if people only practice (and preach) what they are told, rather than trying this stuff out and doing what feels right and works for them. Did previous generations add or remove things based on thier preferences and experiences? It seems to me that they did quite a bit...So why not now?

ASB

It's for sure not the most important move in GGFFK when you can also learn it from any Three Stooges movie.

Chris H quote:Originally posted by RHD

Let's discuss the value of this technique.

Start with a small poll:

How many of us have practiced using this technique with a partner as a drill on a regular basis?

How many of us have used this technique in sparring on a regular basis?

How many of us have used this technique outside the kwoon in a real physical conflict?

How many of us are confident in the use of this technique in comparison to other movements from GGFFK?

My suspicions are that the number affirmative results to all of those questions will be very low.

Does that mean that it isn't a valid technique or expression of Hung Kuen? No, as our colleges have pointed out it is an expression of a skill.

However, because our forefathers added it to GGFFK, and/or wanted to highlight a certain skill does it mean that we must include it in our practice? No.

Will the inclusion or exclusion of this technique make someone's Hung less potent than another's? Doubtful.

I can say this: I don't practice or include this technique in my daily training. It's simply not practical for me to do so as there are plenty of other tools to choose from.

Sometimes I do wonder though if people only practice (and preach) what they are told, rather than trying this stuff out and doing what feels right and works for them. Did previous generations add or remove things based on thier preferences and experiences? It seems to me that they did quite a bit...So why not now?

Ugggh, just typed a response and it lost the whole thing.

From a what some would call a "high percentage" perspective, I think its pretty obvious that this technique does not fall under that category. If anything, its probably more of a last ditch effort type of move. It certainly requires a level of escalation that most are not willing to go to. However, if you are willing to go there, it could be a fight stopper I'd say.

However, there are aspects to the move that I feel are much more immediately functional. Where I was coming from was more of the "wrist snap" angle that expands on what is typically found in Haak Ga type skills, where the shocking ging is paramount.

This, to me, is much more functional and useful. I've used it in a variety of situations.

I've found it to be especially useful in clinch/tie up positions as of late.

Now, practicing the actual technique in sparring or drill based format, that depends on where you want to go with it and what type of gear you are using. Will you actually pull off the technique? I think we obviously know you can't do it. But there are plenty of ways to practice finger jabs. From a sparring perspective, you'll obviously have to use a helmet with a visor on it. Will you be able to get the proper penetration? Nope. Will you be able to learn how to actually work the entries to get the technique in? Yep.

With drills, I've used focus mitts and hanging sandbags to work the more penetrative aspects of finger jabs. From this particular angle, there is only so much you can do, and for the most part, it isn't really "alive" per se. From the sparring angle, its more "alive", yet we know the intensity of the play is not where it should be, but there is probably more garnered from this than just accepting things at face value. Obviously some modifications will have to be made so you don't injure yourself, but it is pretty do-able.

At least for the sake of working entires.

In general I'd agree that most people would not be confident in using this move (or other finger jab type moves) when compared to other moves. In the end, fighting is personal and it is up to the individual to focus on what they want to specialize in. We all know that you use what you train the most.

Will the exlusion of this move make their Hung Kuen less potent? I don't believe so, but I do feel if you analyze the entire move and what its teaching, it can be a nice expansion on certain skills. It just depends on how far down the rabbit hole somebody wants to go.

With that being said, I do believe that many just take what they are taught at face value and don't make things their own. However, on the flipside of that, I feel that people that have made things their own should not fall into the trap of thinking that what they train is the only true way. We all know that fighting is personal and needs to be tailored to the individual. As teachers, we need to be especially mindful of what we discard, because what might be not functional to us might be quite functional to somebody else.

TenTigers

"It's one of those instances where somebody went outside to find out more about what they had inside. In reality, this is the story of Hung Kuen. As one of my partners in crime likes to say, "Hung Ga is a mutt pai." It's nowhere near as "pure" as what most people like to think. We stole from everybody else just like everybody else"

um...not fer nuthin' but..isn't that what I've been saying for the past few years?

AND EVERYBODY JUMPED ALL OVER ME??!!!!

>:-P "THPPPPPPPPPPPT!!!"

(ya bastids)

TenTigers

off topic-as i write this there are cops closing off the street down below-some boyfriend of a 15yr old pregnant chick just got shot by another gang-banger. Now who's yer daddy? Another day in the life.

we now return to our regular scheduled topic.

tparkersf Hi Chris,

Excellent responses. I never thought of the technique quite like you allude to. I understand I have a lot to learn, and I of course thank many of you on this list for helping me understand it a little deeper. Your explination helps me to see the hakka energy that I missed previously. Thanks.

RHD,

I agree that we have many technqiues to choose from, and we should work those that

we can pull of and have success with. No doubt there will be some technqiue we may not be as proficient with. But I am not sure if people like Lam Sai Wing and Wong Fei Hung put in useless technqiues. I think all of them should be doable, else they probably wouldn't have added them. Think back to some of the silly things you learned in math class. Few people ever use trigonometry, but should we stop teaching it to high school students unless they want to be surveyors or pursue a mathmatic disipline? I think it is there so we can use it both as a technique, and as a concept. As Chris mentioned, there is some ging here to explore.

I do disagree with the idea that everything can be "tested". Or somehow that testing in sparring leds to some sort of evaluation of how things will work. The army trains soldiers every day on how to fight on a battle field without actually killing anyone. This goes for mechanized warefare as well as hand to hand comat. Police officers learn similar tactics. Of course I am not suggesting we sit and meditate on the technique to improve, only that I am not sure we need to pluck an eye ball out of a socket to get the full benifit. Honestly, what about throat strikes and other potentally leathal techniques?

Do we not rely on them because we never pulled those off? I don't think so. The idea isn't neccessarily to be succesfull in killing an opponent or actually removing the eyeball, but to do damage. As TenTigers mentioned from his experience, we can do some damage if he hit the eyes right.

Any ways, I don't mean to argue, just debating the other side a bit.

TenTigers

There are definately techniques that I haven't been on the recieving end, but I trust them, due to the frequency that they appear in our sets as well as others, and from talking to either those who have done, or felt them or doctors. Knees, collarbones,throat,spine,etc. Now that whole grab the head and twist to break the neck?

Well, I have done takedowns with it, but I haven't broken a neck yet. I would hate to try to finish someone off in a real fight, only to hear a loud "crack" and the guy look at me and say,

"Wow, Thanks, Man! My neck's been bothering me for weeks!

That felt GREAT!"

AndyT

Ok, what I tried to explain before was what Chris said. Not all of what he said mind you... just a small part. When played, the wrist breaks. And that is why it felt different to me.

tparkersf

Just a question. What exactly do we mean be the wrist breaking? I assume we mean bending the wrist, but doesn't the tiger claw bend the wwrist? Or is it just bends that go the other way.

daifong quote:Originally posted by ASB

It's for sure not the most important move in GGFFK when you can also learn it from any Three Stooges movie.

That's an old joke already, ASB!

RHD