that existed before ’94 and even in 1994, is in a relationship that was created by the ANC and t h a t the discussions that took place at that point in time or a least till May 1995,
S J R VAN DER WALT
place against the background of attempting t o 5 ANC, especially also t o redeem, a
redeem the overdraft of 40 million rands.
I look at it, is that the ANC was at that p would still make donation movement
was earmarked by him as which uld make such contributions. This would also make it easier for him t o account for contributions made t o the ANC. Do you have any comments on that?
--- Excuse me, M’Lord
And in this regard, if I can draw your attention to P.83 t o be read with P.84. --- M’Lord, if
view, comment on t
setting up of a company forming part of the group structure, t o make donations, I do no see the necessity to set up a company t o make the 5 donations. If donations were t o be made by the Nkobi group of companies, then those donations would have gone directly t o the ANC as payments to and on behalf of the ANC. A company within the structure is a bid od set it up, unless it was the intention t o provide the ANC with benefits of future projects from the activities of the Nkobi group of companies, earning a dividend in that group of companies, because the way I understand is Floryn Investments was a shareholder in the Nkobi group of companies and as a share
it would or may benefit from future dividends and the dividen realised or paid from the visible
companies on projects i
very straightforward business way t
support an organisation such as the ANC, is t o issue a cheque and make the donation.
I they engaged in.
If I may just correct something that you have - was 20 inadvertently placed in my mouth. I did not say t
Investments were set up for this purpose, he decided t o use Floryn Investments fo
earlier in ’94.
purpose. Floryn Investments were already set up
25 Well, I thought
-
my note is that he created FlorInvestments for
S J R VAN DER WALT MR VAN ZYL M'Lord, then it's my mistake. I shouldn't have said that. In this regard, can I refer you t o P.83 and P.84. Both these documents, as you can se
premises of the Nkobi gr
correct, M'Lord. 5
The letter is dated he 3rd
-
P.83 - the 3rd of December addressed t o Mr Msimang who,Treasurer-General of the ANC.
"Dear Mr Msimang
Mr Schabir Shaik asked me t o fax t o
attached document which you discussed with him this afternoon. Kind regards, Colin Isaacs".
And then if you go over to and if yo
you'll see it followed the one o other, 36 37.
"Nkobi Holdings Limited: Payments t o Floryn 15 investments Limited
and you see the amounts of 9 8
-
ag, for 96/97 and then '98 through '99-
...
and further payments envisaged current year1 million. Total R2 3 8 6 318" . 20
The importance here is that Mr Shaik will say these were contributions t o the ANC and the heading there
-
"Payments M a t o Floryn Investments (Pty) Limited"
, shows that that was used, that's Floryn, was used as the vehicle
through which he make these contributions and in such a way 25 it's easier for the count as t o what went to the ANC. Do you
- 1711
-
S J R VAN DER WALT have any comments on that?find the document before I
...
intervention]---
M'Lord, if I can just a moment t oYes, you've referred t o a document where the million was referred t o as dividends for the year, addressed t o Mr Zweli Mkhize.
--- Yes, M'Lord, if I can just find the document it would be helpful. 5 Mr Van der Walt, I have a note here, 0 1 0627, but I'm not sure
that
-
I unfortunately do not have the document. --- Yes, that is correct, M Lord.If you look a t the date of 0 1 0 6 2 7 and t
in P.84, that may explain the problem t o you.
--
Yes, it looks like the amounts are similar. On 0 1 0 6 2 7 , 0 1 0 6 2 7 is the letter that was written on 1 9 May 1 9 9 9 t o Mr Schabir Shaik, Executive Chairman, Nkobi Holdings Limited, Suite 502, and then-
"Contributions t o the ANC Fund.
I wish t o confirm receipt of and thank you for the 15 following contributions made from your group t o the
AN C , K w a Z u I u
-
N a t a I.
And then -
disbursements 1,361 million. Year end dividend
1 million". 20
And then
-
"Total contribution 1 9 9 9
-
million. Yours sincerely".And then Mr Z Mkhize. M'Lord, this letter is not signed. However, it appears that if there was at least an attempt from Dr Mkhize t o write such a letter and the contents of this letter is confirmed by this t looks like this is what the schedule refers to, is the
25
-
S J R VAN DER WALT payments already made and then maybe that-
"Further payments envisaged current year R I million"
refers t o the dividend.
The important point is, Mr Van der Walt, t h
is - 5
"Payment made t o Flo Investments (Pty) Limited"
and this is sent t o Mr Msimang clearly as contributions t o the ANC for the period '96, '97, '98 and '99, would agree with me that at least on the face of this document it shows that contributions t o the ANC went through Floryn Investments Limited?
say that it went through Floryn Inv
confirm these payments with the information a t my disposal and reply t o the question when I've had sufficient time to
-
t o consider the information at my disposal.Fair enough. M'Lord, the mere fact that it's reflected as 15 payments made t o Floryn Investments, does not really mean that
those payments were in actu made Investments. It could have been made t o other parties.
No, I think, Mr Van der Walt, we're at cross-purposes here. All
I'm trying t o convey t o you is tha 2 0
payments might not have gone from Floryn or t o Flory
were accounted for in Floryn Investments, and that's what putting t o you. M'Lord, no, I don't think it was
Investments. M'Lord will recall t h
the financial records of Floryn Inv 25
CC2 7 D - 1 7 1 3 - S J R VAN DER WALT Okay.
---
This is a schedule that was ostensibly maintained in the Nkobi group of companiet o Floryn Inv
Well, put differently, without the financial statements and the
books of Floryn, you’re not really in a position t o say what the correct 5 position is?
---
Yes, M‘Lord, but I was put with ththese payments were accounted for in Floryn I replied t o that question.
To say you cannot really say yes or no?
SQUIRES J Without looking at the books.
MR VAN ZYL Without looking at the books. --- Certainly, yes, M’Lord.
Ja. Then with reference t o 0 1 0 5 5 6 - M’Lord, that’s a document in M.2. We dealt with that on Friday
5 5 6 in sequence You will recall, Mr Van der Walt, that with reference t o this document, you told the Court at least it looks as if nominee shareholding was not unknown t o the people within the
Nkobi group and here M r sitting , ,
M r opposite an entry nominee document - I’m not going t o
1 5
repeat all that evidence. Do you 20
want t o put it straight that at this p whether this Zuma refers t
M r Zuma, that it is his name I need
...
intervenaccept that it is written
SQUIRES J Just pause, Mr Van Zyl. 2 5
MR VAN ZYL Yes, M’Lord. The question
...
CC2 7 D
MR VAN ZYL [Indistinct
-
speaking simultaneously].SQUIRES es.
MR VAN ZYL
like Shezi there and then Zuma.
SQUIRES J So that intervention]
MR VAN ZYL I’m referring t o that SQUIRES J Yes, thank you.
MR VAN ZYL Now with reference t o that, M r Van der Walt, I have t o put it t o you that Mr Shaik will say that Mr Zuma was never a shareholder directly or indirectly in the Nkob of companies and t o this day he is not a shareholder directly or indirectly. Do you have case the use of nominee shareh
Nkobi group of companies. 25
was a term no
ith a blank signe form from Education -
S J R VAN DER WALT excuse me, M'Lord, the Workers College, indicating that which have in effect made the shares in the Workers College a bearer(?) document and, M'Lord, it is generally known that that is a method t o get past the use or the identification of real shareholders. What I did indeed say is that it was considered, it is clear from the time w
was set up, that Mr Zuma was considered t o b
shareholder against the background of a possible nominee hareholding,
5
Yes.