TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
FRIDAY 8 MAY 2015 AT 10.03 AM (9th day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner MR IAN HILL QC, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
MR O’BRYAN: Now, I understand Ms Ryan is in the hearing room. 1
You’re Ms Ryan? Good morning. Would you mind just 2
remaining seated, Ms Ryan, for a minute. There are some 3
preliminaries I have to go through. This examination is 4
to be video recorded. Please commence the recording. 5
Today’s date is 8 May 2015 and the time is 10.05 am. My 6
name is Stephen O’Bryan. I am conducting this 7
examination under powers delegated to me by instrument 8
dated 5 September 2013. I have already had marked as 9
exhibit 1 a copy of the instrument of delegation. 10
This examination is being held and conducted under 11
part 6 of the Independent Broad-Based Anti-Corruption 12
Commission Act 2011 as part of an investigation under 13
part 3 of that Act. I take this opportunity to draw your 14
attention, Ms Ryan, to the fact that this examination is 15
inquisitorial in nature. This means that I am not bound 16
by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate the 17
conduct of this examination in such ways as I consider 18
appropriate. The examination is open to the public. 19
Now, Ms Ryan, I understand you have had legal advice, but 20
you don’t have a legal representative here today. 21
MS J. RYAN: That’s correct. 22
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. Well, then, I would ask you, at this stage, 23
to enter the witness box, please. Please be seated. 24
Thank you. Do you have a middle name? 25
MS RYAN: Jana Ellen Ryan. 26
MR O’BRYAN: Ellen. Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now 27
require you to take an oath or make an affirmation, Ms 28
Ryan. Which of those two options do you prefer? 29
MS RYAN: I will take the oath. 30
MR O’BRYAN: Take the oath? 1
MS RYAN: Yes, thank you. 2
MR O’BRYAN: Could you take the bible – it’s down on your left 3
there below the microphone – take it in your right hand, 4
please, and repeat after me. 5
JANA ELLEN RYAN, SWORN 6
MR O’BRYAN: Thank you. You can put the bible back down. 7
Because this is an inquisitorial examination, the 8
procedure differs from procedures which are adversarial 9
nature and of the kind that you normally see in the 10
courts. Counsel assisting me, Ms Harris, will question 11
you on matters relevant to the subject matter of the 12
investigation and I may also ask you some questions. I’m 13
required to advise you of the nature of the matters in 14
respect of which you are to be asked questions. 15
They are to give evidence before this Commission in 16
relation to your knowledge of matters the subject of the 17
scope and purpose described in the preliminary 18
information and directions for examinations in Operation 19
Ord. Ms Ryan, at the time you were served with a summons 20
to attend, did you receive a document titled Section 21
121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations? 22
MS RYAN: I did. 23
MR O’BRYAN: And you have had legal advice, as I understand 24
it, from a Mr John Edgar. 25
MS RYAN: Yes, I have. 26
MR O’BRYAN: Is he a solicitor or a barrister? 27
MS RYAN: I think it was lawyer. 28
MR O’BRYAN: Well, did you - - - 29
MS RYAN: He’s a lawyer from Brown company. I think he’s – I 30
don’t think he’s a solicitor. I think - - - 1
MR O’BRYAN: Do you think he’s a barrister? 2
MS RYAN: I think he’s a solicitor. I’m not sure really. 3
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. So you went to solicitors - - - 4
MS RYAN: Yes. We had a - - - 5
MR O’BRYAN: Did you – what is the firm of solicitors called? 6 MS RYAN: Brown. 7 MR O’BRYAN: Brown? 8 MS RYAN: Yes. 9
MR O’BRYAN: And are they suburban solicitors? 10
MS RYAN: That was on the list where I could get free advice. 11
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. And Mr Edgar seemed to be - - - 12
MS RYAN: John Edgar. 13
MR O’BRYAN: Mr John Edgar seemed to be a lawyer in that 14
office, did he - - - 15
MS RYAN: Yes. 16
MR O’BRYAN: - - - who handled your matter? 17
MS RYAN: Yes. 18
MR O’BRYAN: And have you – did he take you through the 19
statement of rights and obligations and explain that 20
document to you? 21
MS RYAN: Yes, he did. 22
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. All right. 23
MS RYAN: Can I just ask; he did say before I answer every 24
question to say privilege. Now, is that - - - 25
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 26
MS RYAN: - - - applicable here? 27
MR O’BRYAN: No. It’s not applicable. 28
MS RYAN: Thank you. 29
MR O’BRYAN: You don’t – the important thing is that the Act 30
itself gives you certain rights and, in particular, if 1
you answer questions truthfully, then your evidence is 2
not admissible and cannot be used against you in a court 3
of law, with some limited exceptions that are written in 4
the statement of rights and obligations and which he 5
would have taken you through. Do you remember him taking 6
you through that? 7
MS RYAN: Yes, yes. 8
MR O’BRYAN: So that you don’t need to say “privilege”, 9
because the Act itself restricts the use in which your 10
answers can be used against you. 11
MS RYAN: That’s fine. 12
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 13
MS RYAN: That’s fine. I’m glad. 14
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. That was something that traditionally was 15
said in other jurisdictions in investigations, for 16
instance, ACCC investigations where you needed to make 17
that claim to ensure that your rights were protected, but 18
I don’t consider that you need to. In other words, it’s 19
taken for granted that you have that protection. 20
MS RYAN: Thank you. 21
MR O’BRYAN: Do you follow? Otherwise, do you have any 22
queries arising out of that statement of rights and 23
obligations? 24
MS RYAN: No. No, I don’t. 25
MR O’BRYAN: No. All right then. Now, because this 26
investigation involves a protected disclosure, I’m 27
required to advise you of two matters under the Protected 28
Disclosure Act, and you won’t necessarily know these 29
matters anyway, but you would be committing a criminal 30
offence if you disclose the content or information about 1
the content of the disclosure, if you happen to know what 2
it was. 3
Secondly, you would also be committing a criminal 4
offence if you disclose information likely to lead to the 5
identification of the person who made the assessable 6
disclosure, if you happen to know who that person is. 7
You are entitled, however, at any time to disclose the 8
content or information about the content of the protected 9
disclosure to your legal representative or advisor for 10
the purposes of obtaining legal advice or subsequently if 11
it’s relevant to your representation here. 12
I am otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions 13
which would allow such disclosure do not apply in this 14
case and I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose. 15
Now, I’ve said that because the Act requires me to tell 16
you that, but I assume it may be the case that you don’t 17
know who the person was who made the assessable 18
disclosure. If you do know, don’t name the person, but 19
can I assume you don’t know anyone? 20
MS RYAN: No. 21
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 22
MS RYAN: Thank you. 23
MR O’BRYAN: All right. Thank you. Well, then, the 24
examination will commence and I authorise Ms Harris to 25
examine you. Ms Harris. 26
MS A. HARRIS: Thank you, Commissioner. 27
Are you Jana Ellen Ryan? 28
MS RYAN: Yes, I am. 29
MS HARRIS: And do you attend here in response to a summons 30
served on you? 1
MS RYAN: Yes. I’m here because of that summons. 2
MS HARRIS: Can I just have some documents handed to you, 3
please. Hopefully they’re copies of documents that were 4
given to you, specifically summons number SE1425; is 5
that right? 6
MS RYAN: That’s correct, yes. 7
MS HARRIS: And with that summons, did you receive a 8
confidentiality notice dated 16 March 2005? 9
MS RYAN: Yes, I did. 10
MS HARRIS: And you’ve indicated to the Commissioner already 11
you also received a document titled Section 121(3)(c) 12
Statement of Rights and Obligations? 13
MS RYAN: Yes, I did. 14
MS HARRIS: And did you also receive with that summons a 15
covering letter dated 16 March 2015? 16
MS RYAN: Yes. 17
MS HARRIS: Thank you. I tender those documents, 18
Commissioner. 19
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. Those documents will be marked as a bundle 20
as exhibit 126. 21
EXHIBIT #126 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS 22
MS HARRIS: Ms Ryan, you’re the business manager at Brighton 23
Primary School; is that right? 24
MS RYAN: Yes, I am. 25
MS HARRIS: How long have you held that position for? 26
MS RYAN: 28 years. 27
MS HARRIS: And how long have you been with the Department of 28
Education? 29
MS RYAN: 44. 30
MS HARRIS: And it has been known as various things over that 1
time; is that right? 2
MS RYAN: Absolutely. 3
MS HARRIS: And for some of the time that you have been 4
business manager, Mr Gordon Pratt was the principal? 5
MS RYAN: He was. 6
MS HARRIS: And I think we heard yesterday he left in about 7
mid-2009; does that sound about right to you? 8
MS RYAN: 2008, I think. 9
MS HARRIS: So how long was he principal at Brighton Primary? 10
MS RYAN: 10 years, I think. He came in 1998. 11
MS HARRIS: Right. Can you give us just a brief description 12
of what your role is in terms of the business manager? 13
MS RYAN: It has changed over the years. I started there as a 14
clerical assistant and grew with the job. And my role as 15
a business manager is to oversee the budgets; I do 16
accounts payable; I oversee staff in the general office 17
who do accounts receivable; I do HR; put out the 18
advertisements on Recruitment Online; do contracts, 19
appoint teachers and staff; I attend school council, 20
write the minutes and I attend finance, write the minutes 21
and answer a million calls during the day from parents. 22
MS HARRIS: Right. And you’re responsible for the payment of 23
invoices sent to the school? 24
MS RYAN: I am. 25
MS HARRIS: Can you tell me, in 2008/2009, was Brighton 26
Primary School a banker school or a - - - 27
MS RYAN: No, it wasn’t. 28
MS HARRIS: - - - program coordinator school? 29
MS RYAN: No. 30
MS HARRIS: So you obviously understand what I mean by that 1 term? 2 MS RYAN: Yes. 3
MS HARRIS: You’ve heard it before? 4
MS RYAN: Yes. 5
MS HARRIS: Nonetheless, Brighton Primary School did pay an 6
invoice on behalf of someone else in December 2008, 7
didn’t they? 8
MS RYAN: Absolutely, yes. 9
MS HARRIS: And specifically for Anteriors Décor 10
Installations; is that right? 11
MS RYAN: Yes. 12
MS HARRIS: Could we have page 126 of the main court book, 13
please. Have you seen this invoice before, Ms Ryan? 14
MS RYAN: Yes, I have. 15
MS HARRIS: Can you explain how – or what your understanding 16
is of how it came about that Brighton Primary School paid 17
this invoice? 18
MS RYAN: My principal at the time, Gordon Pratt, handed me 19
the invoice and he asked me to process payment. So he 20
did say to me it was a little bit unusual, but everything 21
was fine, because the Department were going to reimburse 22
the school and it was a directive from Mr Jeff Rosewarne. 23
MS HARRIS: What was unusual about it? 24
MS RYAN: Because the goods weren’t at our school. 25
MS HARRIS: So no goods or services were received - - - 26
MS RYAN: No. 27
MS HARRIS: - - - by Brighton Primary in relation to this 28
invoice? 29
MS RYAN: No. 30
MS HARRIS: Do you know what the goods and services were that 1 were supplied? 2 MS RYAN: No. 3
MS HARRIS: If we can just scroll down, please? Thank you. 4
There’s a good received stamp. We heard yesterday from 5
Mr Pratt that that’s his signature on there. 6
MS RYAN: That is his signature, yes. 7
MS HARRIS: Do you agree with that? And his writing in terms 8
of the date? 9
MS RYAN: Yes. 10
MS HARRIS: And you were responsible for paying that invoice. 11
Is that right? 12
MS RYAN: I was. I was asked to process payment. 13
MS HARRIS: How did it physically come to you? 14
MS RYAN: He handed it to me. 15
MS HARRIS: Right. 16
MS RYAN: And then as process is at the school I need to raise 17
a purchase school. 18
MS HARRIS: Yes. 19
MS RYAN: And I did that and documented everything that I knew 20
on – that was on that purchase order which was a 21
directive from Mr Jeff Rosewarne from the top going down. 22
The - - - 23
MS HARRIS: I’ll just stop you there. 24
MS RYAN: Yes, sorry. 25
MS HARRIS: Did Mr Pratt say how that directive came to him? 26
MS RYAN: No, he just said it’s a directive from Mr Rosewarne. 27
MS HARRIS: And you indicated that you filled out the purchase 28
order. 29
MS RYAN: Yes, I did. 30
MS HARRIS: Can we bring up page 125, please? Is that the 1
purchase order you’re referring to? 2
MS RYAN: Yes, it is. Yes. 3
MS HARRIS: Whose writing appears on that? 4
MS RYAN: That’s mine. 5
MS HARRIS: And if we scroll down to the bottom, further, 6
please, if you may? Thank you. That’s Mr Pratt’s 7
signature is it? 8
MS RYAN: Yes, it is. 9
MS HARRIS: If we can just go up a bit to the description, it 10
refers to office reqs which I assume is requirements. 11
MS RYAN: Yes. 12
MS HARRIS: For Treasury Place. 13
MS RYAN: Yes. 14
MS HARRIS: Where did that information come from? 15
Specifically that it was in relation to office 16
requirements. 17
MS RYAN: I didn’t know what that – what was actually going to 18
Treasury so I assumed it was office requisites. 19
MS HARRIS: And what was it that made you assume that? 20
MS RYAN: I – I didn’t think it would be anything else, it 21
couldn’t be any equipment or anything. 22
MS HARRIS: Did Mr Pratt tell you anything about what was 23
going? 24
MS RYAN: No, he said the – the Department couldn’t actually 25
pay it at this point of time, he wanted the school to 26
pay, it was just some requisites in the – in the 27
Department, in the office area. 28
MS HARRIS: So he said it was office requisites? 29
MS RYAN: I’ve forgotten. 30
MS HARRIS: Were they - - - 1
MS RYAN: I can be 100 percent sure on that, but - - - 2
MS HARRIS: Or it may have been an assumption that you made? 3
MS RYAN: It could have been. Yes, correct. 4
MS HARRIS: It says, “To be reimbursed by DEECD.” 5
MS RYAN: Yes, but the Department. 6
MS HARRIS: The Department at that stage. 7
MS RYAN: Yes. 8
MS HARRIS: That was something that was told to you? 9
MS RYAN: It was, I took it upon myself to document everything 10
on that purchase order. 11
MS HARRIS: And that was told to you by Mr Pratt was it? 12
MS RYAN: Yes, it was. 13
MS HARRIS: That the Department was to reimburse the school? 14
MS RYAN: Yes. 15
MS HARRIS: And it says, “Jeff Rosewarne’s” - - - 16
MS RYAN: Oh - - - 17
MS HARRIS: I’m sorry, I interrupted you. 18
MS RYAN: Sorry, no, I’m just reading that. Sorry. Yes. 19
MS HARRIS: “Jeff Rosewarne’s directive,” that wasn’t a 20
directive that came to you though was it? 21
MS RYAN: No. 22
MS HARRIS: That was something that was conveyed to you by Mr 23
Pratt? 24
MS RYAN: Correct. 25
MS HARRIS: What was Mr Rosewarne’s position at that 26
particular time in December 2008? Do you recall? 27
MS RYAN: I really don’t know. I knew that he was just a 28
senior personnel in the Department. 29
MS HARRIS: And at that stage you were a very experienced 30
business manager. 1
MS RYAN: Yes. 2
MS HARRIS: Was it unusual for Mr Rosewarne to be directing 3
your school to pay invoices on behalf of - - - 4
MS RYAN: We had never had that before. That was only a 5
oncer. 6
MS HARRIS: Have you ever had it since? 7
MS RYAN: No. 8
MS HARRIS: And what was your understanding of what was 9
located at Treasury Place? 10
MS RYAN: I had no understanding, I had no idea what was 11
located at Treasury Place. 12
MS HARRIS: Did you understand it to be head office of the 13 - - - 14 MS RYAN: Yes. 15 MS HARRIS: - - - Department? 16 MS RYAN: Yes. 17
MS HARRIS: We know that you paid that invoice. There’s a 18
purchase – a payment voucher, I’m sorry, at page 128. If 19
you could bring that up, please? 128, please. 20
MR O’BRYAN: So this is all part of exhibit 12 I think, Ms 21
Harris. 22
MS HARRIS: Yes, Commissioner. 23
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 24
MS HARRIS: That’s the payment voucher - - - 25
MS RYAN: Yes. 26
MS HARRIS: - - - for that invoice? 27
MS RYAN: Yes. Yes, it is. 28
MS HARRIS: Mr Pratt’s signature appears there. 29
MS RYAN: Yes, it does. 30
MS HARRIS: As does yours. Is that right? 1
MS RYAN: Yes, I’m the business manager there. 2
MS HARRIS: And the school council nominee was that the 3
assistant principal or someone - - - 4
MS RYAN: That was – Sandra Lindsay was the school council 5
nominee and she was also assistant principal at the time. 6
MS HARRIS: Was she informed that that particular payment 7
wasn’t for goods or services received at Brighton Primary 8
School? 9
MS RYAN: I don’t know. Once it leaves my office I – I don’t 10
know when – when it gets to the other people signing. 11
MS HARRIS: So could you just explain the process? In terms 12
of the – you’ve got a purchase order - - - 13
MS RYAN: Yes. 14
MS HARRIS: - - - and an invoice - - - 15
MS RYAN: Yes. 16
MS HARRIS: - - - and now a payment voucher, what happens to 17
those documents? 18
MS RYAN: Well, they get filed in the – in our folders at 19
school. 20
MS HARRIS: And kept together? 21
MS RYAN: Kept together. 22
MS HARRIS: Because they relate to one particular transaction. 23
Is that right? 24
MS RYAN: Yes, everything’s related, that transaction is kept 25
together. 26
MS HARRIS: Was the school ultimately reimbursed for that 27
payment? 28
MS RYAN: Yes. 29
MS HARRIS: If I indicated to you that they were reimbursed or 30
the school was reimbursed $5000 on 30 December 2009 into 1
the high yield account, does that sound right to you? 2
MS RYAN: We were reimbursed, yes. 3
MS HARRIS: How were the funds reimbursed? Do you recall? 4
MS RYAN: It was electronic. 5
MS HARRIS: And did the – did it come with documentation or 6
any type of reference as to what - - - 7
MS RYAN: Remittance advice, it had SRP adjustment. 8
MS HARRIS: So no reference to the fact - - - 9
MS RYAN: No. 10
MS HARRIS: - - - that it was for - - - 11
MS RYAN: No, no reference whatever. 12
MS HARRIS: - - - Arteriors Décor Installations? 13
MS RYAN: No, it comes from the Department the remittance 14
advice. 15
MS HARRIS: And no reference to the fact that it was for goods 16
and services supplied - - - 17
MS RYAN: No. 18
MS HARRIS: - - - during December 2008? 19
MS RYAN: No. 20
MS HARRIS: How were you to know as the business manager that 21
that $5000 that had been deposited into the school 22
account was for reimbursement of that invoice? 23
MS RYAN: Well, like all business managers we come off our 24
leave and come in in January and do the end of year 25
rollover. We weren’t – I wasn’t expecting any 26
reimbursements at that point and my assumption was that 27
it was the reimbursement because I knew there was a 28
reimbursement coming and I reimbursed it in the 29
principal’s discretionary fund. 30
MS HARRIS: Did you make any enquiries as to whether that 1
assumption was correct? 2
MS RYAN: No. 3
MS HARRIS: Did you speak - - - 4
MS RYAN: I ran it by Gordon and everything was fine. 5
MS HARRIS: So you spoke with Mr Pratt about it? 6
MS RYAN: He would have seen it. He would have to sign off on 7
our January and December reconciliation. 8
MS HARRIS: That would make – there would be leftover, then, 9
funds of $176. Were you given any instruction as to how 10
that was to be used? 11
MS RYAN: No. 12
MS HARRIS: Was that to be used just at the school’s 13
discretion? 14
MS RYAN: No, no. I just receipted it and that was it. It 15
went into the discretionary fund and – the principal’s 16
discretionary fund. At the end of the year everything 17
gets rolled over into consolidated revenue. That wasn’t 18
spent on anything. 19
MS HARRIS: Yes. So in terms of the records for that payment 20
back into the school, it would simply appear as a deposit 21
from the Department? 22
MS RYAN: Correct. 23
MS HARRIS: For – or being for an SRP adjustment. 24
MS RYAN: Yes. 25
MS HARRIS: And the SRP, we’ve already heard, is the student 26
resource package. 27
MS RYAN: Yes. 28
MS HARRIS: That’s allocated to each school. 29
MS RYAN: Yes. 30
MS HARRIS: You would agree then, wouldn’t you, that somebody 1
looking at those two transactions from the outside 2
wouldn’t necessarily understand that they’re related, 3
would they? 4
MS RYAN: No, they wouldn’t. 5
MS HARRIS: Not particularly transparent for auditing 6
purposes, for example. You would agree with that? 7
MS RYAN: Not really. As I did document on the purchase order 8
that DEET were going to reimburse the school and it 9
wasn’t much after the process of payment that it came. 10
MS HARRIS: But there would be nothing transparent about the 11
actual payment going in being relevant to the invoice for 12
Arteriors Décor Installations, would there? 13
MS RYAN: No, probably not. No. 14
MS HARRIS: Just out of interest, when you did make the 15
payment, did you notify anybody at head office that that 16
payment had been made. 17
MS RYAN: Yes. Mr Pratt asked me to email Mr Rosewarne and 18
let him know that payment had been made. 19
MS HARRIS: And did you do that? 20
MS RYAN: I did. 21
MS HARRIS: Do you recall if you emailed his Department 22
address or his personal address? 23
MS RYAN: I can’t recall but I imagine I would have looked him 24
up on the global email list. I’m not sure. 25
MS HARRIS: Could we bring up page 127, please. You may not 26
have seen this email before. This is from Mr Rosewarne 27
to Mr Pratt in relation to the invoice and payment of the 28
invoice. Have you seen that before? 29
MS RYAN: No, I haven’t. 30
MS HARRIS: So that wasn’t forwarded to you at any stage? 1
MS RYAN: No. 2
MS HARRIS: And you weren’t directed to contact Mr Rosewarne 3
on that particular email address? 4
MS RYAN: No. I just took it on myself. I – I think I 5
emailed his – his email address on the global email list. 6
MS HARRIS: Yes. The evidence given to the commission 7
previously is that that invoice doesn’t actually relate – 8
that is the Arteriors Décor Installations invoice doesn’t 9
relate to goods and services supplied during the month of 10
December 2008. It, in fact, relates to a Christmas 11
party. Have you come to know that? 12
MS RYAN: Yes, I believe so. That’s when IBAC came to the 13
school last year. 14
MS HARRIS: Is that when you found out about that? 15
MS RYAN: That’s when I found out. Yes, and they told me. 16
MS HARRIS: And that was the first you had heard about - - - 17
MS RYAN: Absolutely. 18
MS HARRIS: - - - the invoice being for a Christmas party? 19
MS RYAN: Well, that’s what they said. Yes, I was quite 20
shocked actually. 21
MS HARRIS: But that’s not the only unusual transaction 22
relating to your school, is it? There’s also a 23
transaction involving coffee machines. 24
MS RYAN: There’s the coffee machines. Yes. 25
MS HARRIS: How did it come to your attention that Brighton 26
Primary School was to purchase, or had purchased two 27
coffee machines? 28
MS RYAN: Gordon Pratt had given me the documentation to 29
purchase the coffee machines on his school’s credit card. 30
MS HARRIS: What documentation was that? 1
MS RYAN: That was the receipt from Harvey Norman and the 2
receipt – there’s a docket on the transaction of the 3
credit card. He had written the purchase order up and I 4
came across it when I was reconciling the principal’s 5
credit card. That’s what I do every month. I reconcile 6
the credit card to make sure that the amounts that are on 7
that – bank statements for the credit card match the 8
amounts on the school’s bank account, and also in the 9
receipt – with the receipts - - - 10
MS HARRIS: So just so I’m - - - 11
MS RYAN: The receipts. 12
MS HARRIS: Sorry, I interrupted you. 13
MS RYAN: Everything matches. 14
MS HARRIS: So just so I’m clear, did you first know about it 15
when you looked at the credit card statement? 16
MS RYAN: No. 17
MS HARRIS: Or when Mr Pratt informed you? 18
MS RYAN: No. He just gave me the documentation. 19
MS HARRIS: Okay. Could we have a look at page 167, please. 20
MR O’BRYAN: Part of exhibit 14? 21
MS HARRIS: Yes, Commissioner. 22
MS HARRIS: Is that a copy of the credit card statement? 23
MS RYAN: Yes, it is. 24
MS HARRIS: Indicating the Harvey Norman transaction on 21 25
May? 26
MS RYAN: Yes. 27
MS HARRIS: Whose writing indicates a DCD coffee machine? Is 28
that you or Mr Pratt? 29
MS RYAN: That’s – that myself. Because I had to ask what it 30
was for, and I always write that down. 1
MS HARRIS: Yes. 2
MS RYAN: If I have to enter it into the system. So this 3
helps me. 4
MS HARRIS: And can we bring up page 165, please. That’s also 5
part of exhibit 14, Commissioner. That’s the receipt 6
that was handed to you, is it? 7
MS RYAN: Yes, yes. 8
MS HARRIS: Did you think it was strange that Brighton Primary 9
School was purchasing coffee machines? 10
MS RYAN: No, I didn’t because I – I had full trust in my 11
principal. I had worked with him for 10 years. 12
MS HARRIS: Did you know where the coffee machines were going? 13
MS RYAN: Well, he had written on his purchase order that they 14
were going to DEET at Treasury Place and Collins Street. 15
MS HARRIS: Right. And we can bring up that purchase order. 16
It’s the next page down, 166. So that was filled out by 17
Mr Pratt? 18
MS RYAN: Yes, it was. 19
MS HARRIS: And if we just scroll down a bit further, those 20
addresses – 55 Collins Street, level 6 and 2 Treasury 21
Place – did they mean anything to you? 22
MS RYAN: No, no. I knew they were something do with the 23
Department. That’s really all I knew. 24
MS HARRIS: And was it unusual for Mr Pratt to be filling out 25
the purchase order? Was that usually something that you 26
would do? 27
MS RYAN: Normally people that place an order have to fill out 28
the purchase order. I would do most of it for Mr Pratt. 29
It wasn’t really unusual. 30
MS HARRIS: Was it usual practice that a purchase order would 1
be filled out prior to the purchase of an item? 2
MS RYAN: That’s the way it should be actually. 3
MS HARRIS: So the school would need – need something like a 4
printer. You would fill out a purchase order first. 5
MS RYAN: Yes, that is the process. 6
MS HARRIS: And that would be - - - 7
MS RYAN: To fill out the purchase order, get it authorised 8
with the principal and place the order. 9
MS HARRIS: Yes. And then at some point keep the receipt 10
purchase order and invoice together. 11
MS RYAN: Everything is kept together. Yes, the purchase 12
order, the invoice, everything, the voucher. 13
MS HARRIS: And what were the school credit cards to be used 14
for ordinarily? 15
MS RYAN: What were they used for? Anything and everything. 16
It could be reference books for teachers. When they used 17
mine, I had to ring up – if they wanted reference books, 18
or take a copy of my credit card to buy books overseas 19
from Amazon. And that was all documented. And it still 20
is happening. 21
MS HARRIS: Mr Rosewarne gave evidence to the commission that 22
he purchased the coffee machines by quoting Mr Pratt’s 23
credit card details. Is that an unusual practice, in 24
your experience? 25
MS RYAN: That is. 26
MS HARRIS: Have you heard of that happening before? 27
MS RYAN: No. 28
MS HARRIS: What were you told about whether the coffee 29
machines were to remain the property of Brighton Primary 30
School or whether they were on loan to - - - 1
MS RYAN: When I were processed the credit card, I put them in 2
the assets register and had written there that they were 3
out on loan. 4
MS HARRIS: They were out on loan? 5
MS RYAN: On loan. 6
MS HARRIS: So it was your understanding that it was on loan 7
to the Department. 8
MS RYAN: To the two Departments, yes. And I had documented 9
that. 10
MS HARRIS: And who provided that information to you? 11
MS RYAN: Gordon told me they were out on loan. 12
MS HARRIS: In terms of the actual asset register, what kind 13
of detail is required to complete that? Do you need, for 14
example, the model, the make, serial number - - - 15
MS RYAN: The model, the make, the serial number, where it is 16
being housed - - - 17
MS HARRIS: And in this - - - 18
MS RYAN: And any extra notes that you want to put. 19
MS HARRIS: In this particular case, when the purchase was 20
made the machines didn’t come straight to your school, 21
did they? 22
MS RYAN: No. I didn’t see them at all until they were 23
returned. 24
MS HARRIS: So where did you obtain the information for the 25
asset register? 26
MS RYAN: I just documented everything that was – that was on 27
the invoice there. 28
MS HARRIS: On the invoice from - - - 29
MS RYAN: And put it on to the assets from - - - 30
MS HARRIS: From Harvey Norman? 1
MS RYAN: Yes. 2
MS HARRIS: How many schools – sorry, how many coffee machines 3
were at your school in 2009, do you remember? 4
MS RYAN: Golly, I know there was one in the boardroom that 5
was where – or the conference room. That’s where the 6
meetings were held. And one in the staffroom. Could 7
have been two, I’m not sure. But we have two in the 8
staffroom at the moment. There could have only been one 9
at that time. 10
MS HARRIS: So certainly no more than two. 11
MS RYAN: No. 12
MS HARRIS: What became of the coffee machines? Do you know? 13
MS RYAN: They were returned by Mr Pratt to the school to my 14
office and in huge boxes. They were quite heavy. And 15
they sat on the filing cabinets because we didn’t know 16
what to do with them. 17
MS HARRIS: Because you didn’t need them. Is that right? 18
MS RYAN: We didn’t need them. And then they were taken away 19
when IBAC came in last year. 20
MS HARRIS: Can you recall roughly when it was Mr Pratt 21
brought them back? 22
MS RYAN: I think it was around about February 2013. February 23
or March 2013. I documented it on the assets register 24
that he returned the coffee machines. 25
MS HARRIS: Just in relation to that asset register, we heard 26
evidence from Mr Rosewarne that one of the coffee 27
machines that had been purchased ended up at his home and 28
that he purchased another one to replace that coffee 29
machine which would mean that the two coffee machines 30
that ended up at your school - - - 1
MS RYAN: Weren’t the ones that were bought, yes. 2
MS HARRIS: Yes. So that would mean your asset register is 3
not quite right. Is that correct? 4
MS RYAN: Well, I was – I remember I was trying to have a 5
look. They were so heavy and they were in boxes and I 6
saw one that didn’t really match what was bought and I 7
think I – I put on the assets this one has been returned 8
but it didn’t really make sense so that’s it, really. 9
MS HARRIS: So you documented the fact that it didn’t match up 10
to what you understood the machine to be? 11
MS RYAN: I didn’t say it didn’t match up. I just said it was 12
returned but that wasn’t the two coffee machines that I 13
had entered. 14
MS HARRIS: Mr Pratt is obviously no longer the principal at 15
Brighton Primary School. 16
MS RYAN: No, he’s not. 17
MS HARRIS: We heard yesterday, though, that in his current 18
role he’s still listed as a staff member of Brighton 19
Primary School - - - 20
MS RYAN: He’s attached to the – he has to be attached to a 21
base school. 22
MS HARRIS: And that’s still Brighton Primary School? 23
MS RYAN: That is, yes. 24
MS HARRIS: And he receives his wages from the Department. 25
MS RYAN: That’s correct. 26
MS HARRIS: He also receives some payment, though, doesn’t he, 27
from Brighton Primary School? 28
MS RYAN: He gets reimbursement – we get – he’s teaching and 29
learning coach – for travel, any expenses that are 30
incurred. He travels around to all the Victorian 1
schools. For accommodation, parking, mileage, toner on 2
his printer. Yes. 3
MS HARRIS: So how often does the school reimburse those 4
costs? 5
MS RYAN: Well, over the last 14 months, it has been seven 6
times. 7
MS HARRIS: And what amounts are we talking each time? 8
MS RYAN: We – we have been given 20,000 and we’ve spent – 9
we’ve reimbursed about just over 16,000. 10
MS HARRIS: Given 20,000 by the Department? 11
MS RYAN: Yes. And it’s all with his documents. It shows 12
where’s he has been and he signs off on it, and then I 13
raise a purchase order. 14
MS HARRIS: Why is it done that way? Why is he paid by the 15
Department but Brighton Primary reimburses expenses? 16
MS RYAN: I don’t know. 17
MS HARRIS: Have you made any inquiries about that? 18
MS RYAN: No, not really, because it was just given that he’s 19
attached to our base school and the money is to be given 20
to the school for him to get reimbursed. 21
MS HARRIS: Does the school have that arrangement with anyone 22
else? 23
MS RYAN: No. 24
MS HARRIS: In your 28 years as business manager, has it ever 25
had that arrangement with anyone else? 26
MS RYAN: Never. 27
MS HARRIS: Have you had any conversation with Mr Pratt about 28
why the arrangement exists in that way? 29
MS RYAN: He just said that’s the way the Department wants to 30
do it because that’s his base school. It’s the easiest 1
way. 2
MS HARRIS: And you’ve not had any conversation with either 3
the funding finance side of the Department or the 4
Department yourself? 5
MS RYAN: I had many conversations with the funding side and 6
so has the current principal wanting to know why he’s 7
still attached to our school and they keep saying that he 8
has to be attached to a base school but on the 9
fortnightly transaction report that we get, he’s always 10
out of budget. It doesn’t come out of our funds. It 11
comes – it’s out of budget which comes out of Department 12
funds, not the school’s funds. 13
MS HARRIS: And who have you spoken to about that? 14
MS RYAN: I think at some point, it was funding – it was Mr 15
Bruce Taylor. I think my current principal spoke – 16
spoken to Michelle Jenison. That’s really all I know. 17
MS HARRIS: Are you aware of any similar arrangement with any 18
other school? 19
MS RYAN: No, no, I - - - 20
MS HARRIS: So it’s an - - - 21
MS RYAN: I wouldn’t talk to other schools about anything like 22
that anyway. But, no, I don’t know. 23
MS HARRIS: But it seems an unusual practice, in your 24
experience? 25
MS RYAN: Well, probably. 26
MS HARRIS: Yes. I don’t - - - 27
MS RYAN: I haven’t given it much thought, to tell you the 28
truth. If it was in place and was, you know ... 29
MS HARRIS: How long has that been going on for? 30
MS RYAN: I think about two years. 1
MS HARRIS: Yes. 2
MS RYAN: Two and a half years. 3
MS HARRIS: Thank you, Ms Ryan. I have no further questions, 4
Commissioner. 5
MR O’BRYAN: All right. Thank you. Ms Ryan, I think it’s 6
highly unlikely but it remains possible that you might be 7
required back so that at this stage I will just say that 8
your examination may need to be continued at a later date 9
and is therefore adjourned to a date and time to be 10
fixed. You remain bound by the summons you’ve received 11
and the confidentiality notice to the extent it may be 12
applicable. 13
If you’ve got any queries in that regard, you can 14
speak to the solicitor for the Commissioner, Ms Walker, 15
or to your own lawyer. And you may be recalled at any 16
time during the course of this investigation to give 17
further evidence. You will be advised in writing if that 18
is to occur and of the date and time and you will also be 19
advised in writing when you are no longer required. The 20
time now is 11.37 am. Please stop the recording. I’m 21
sorry, ten - - - 22
MS RYAN: 10.30. 23
MR O’BRYAN: 10.37 am. Please stop the recording. You’re now 24
excused. You may leave the witness box. Thank you very 25
much for you - - - 26
MS RYAN: Thank you. 27
MR O’BRYAN: Thank you for your assistance. 28
THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.38 am]
29 30
MS HARRIS: I understand the next witness, Commissioner, is 1
just outside. 2
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. All right. Well, could – that’s Mr Gamble? 3
MS HARRIS: It is. 4
MR O’BRYAN: Could Mr Gamble be asked to come in. Now, good 5
morning, Mr Gamble. Would you mind just taking a seat 6
there for a minute. There are some preliminary matters 7
that I have to go through and then I will ask you to 8
enter the witness box. This examination is to be video 9
recorded. Please ensure the recording is now on. 10
Today’s date is 8 May 2015 and the time is 10.39 am. My 11
name is Stephen O’Bryan. 12
I am conducting this examination under powers 13
delegated to me by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a 14
copy of which has been marked as exhibit 1. This 15
examination is being held and conducted under part 6 of 16
the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission 17
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that 18
Act. 19
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr 20
Gamble, to the fact that this examination is 21
inquisitorial in nature which means that I’m not bound by 22
the rules of evidence and may conduct the examination in 23
such ways as I consider appropriate. The examination is 24
open to the public. Mr Gamble, I will ask you at this 25
stage to enter the witness box, please. Please be 26
seated, Mr Gamble. Mr Gamble, do you have a middle name? 27
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I do. John. 28
MR O’BRYAN: Thank you. Pursuant to my delegated powers, I 29
now require you to take an oath or to make an 30
affirmation. Which of those two options do you prefer? 1
MR GAMBLE: Doesn’t worry me. Nonreligious based, probably. 2
I’m not a religious person. 3
MR O’BRYAN: Well, you have to choose. You swear on the bible 4
or you make an affirmation - - - 5
MR GAMBLE: Affirmation. 6
MR O’BRYAN: All right then. 7
GAVIN JOHN GAMBLE, AFFIRMED [10.41 am] 8
MR O’BRYAN: Thank you. Because this is an inquisitorial 9
examination, the procedure differs from procedures which 10
are adversarial in nature and of the kind you normally 11
see in the courts. Counsel assisting me, Ms Harris, will 12
question you on matters relevant to the subject matter of 13
the investigation and I may also ask you some question. 14
I’m required to advise you of the nature of the matters 15
in respect of which you are to be asked questions. 16
They are to give evidence before this Commission in 17
relation to your knowledge of matters the subject of the 18
scope and purpose described in the preliminary 19
information and directions for public examinations in 20
Operation Ord, a copy of which, I assume, you received 21
with your summons. Is that right? 22
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I did. 23
MR O’BRYAN: You have the right to legal representation at 24
this examination. Do you understand that? 25
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I do understand that. 26
MR O’BRYAN: And I take it your happy to proceed without legal 27
representation? 28
MR GAMBLE: I am. 29
MR O’BRYAN: Now, do you recall receiving a document with your 30
summons headed section 121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and 1
Obligations. 2
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I do. 3
MR O’BRYAN: Have you consulted a lawyer about this? 4
MR GAMBLE: No, I have not. 5
MR O’BRYAN: All right. Well, then I’ll ask whether you can – 6
that you be shown a copy of that Statement of Rights and 7
Obligations, please. And the legislation requires me to 8
ensure that you understand the critical parts of the 9
document, so I’m required to take you through that. Now, 10
does that look like a copy of the document that you 11
received? 12
MR GAMBLE: To be honest similar, yes, I would – I would 13
assume so. 14
MR O’BRYAN: And do you – did you read through that document 15
when you received it? 16
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I did. 17
MR O’BRYAN: All right. Well, then I’ll just go through it 18
briefly. If you’ve got any questions you can ask me? We 19
can skip over the first two pages because they’re not 20
relevant for present purposes. In fact we can skip over 21
page 3, that’s not relevant anymore and if we go to page 22
4, page 4 is not relevant anymore either. 23
We’ll go to page 5. Towards the top you’ll see the 24
heading Privilege at an Examination. 25
You may claim a privilege, but you are not excused from 26
answering a question or giving information on the ground 27
that the answer information may tend to incriminate you 28
or make you liable to a penalty 29
You understand that? 30
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 1
MR O’BRYAN: And then the next section is important. 2
Although you are not excused from answering a question or 3
giving information on the ground that the answer to the 4
question might tend to incriminate you or make you liable 5
to a penalty, any answer information document or thing 6
that might tend to incriminate you or make you liable to 7
a penalty is not admissible in evidence against you 8
before any court or person acting judicially, except in 9
proceedings for perjury or giving false information. 10
That means telling lies here and being proven in a 11
court to have told lies. 12
Or (b) an offence against the IBAC Act, (c) an offence 13
against the Victorian Inspector Act, (c) and offence 14
against section 72 or 73 of the Protected Disclosure Act, 15
contempt of the IBAC under this Act or a disciplinary 16
process or action. 17
Do you have any questions arising out of that? 18
MR GAMBLE: No, I don’t. 19
MR O’BRYAN: Then over the page: 20
With limited exceptions in relation to a person who is a 21
member of police personnel the statutory secrecy 22
provisions may apply which presents you from answering a 23
questions or giving information or producing documents – 24
etcetera, and I’m not aware of any secrecy provisions 25
that would apply to what you’re going to be questioned 26
about you would have to raise any you’re aware of might 27
you be aware of any. 28
MR GAMBLE: I’m not aware of any. 29
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. Now, you can see your right to complain to 30
the Inspectorate and what the Inspectorate’s functions 1
are and you can read that for yourself. 2
MR GAMBLE: Yes, thank you. 3
MR O’BRYAN: And then there are some other ancillary things on 4
the following pages which I don’t think I need to take 5
you through at the moment. So the critical things are 6
that the document means that you must comply with the 7
summons. You must answer questions truthfully unless you 8
have a reasonable excuse not to and you have to answer 9
questions even if they may incriminate you or make you 10
liable to a penalty, but critically those answers can, 11
apart from the limited exceptions, not be used against 12
you in a court of law. 13
So hypothetically a witness can admit committing a 14
crime, but that admission cannot be used in any 15
prosecution of a person. So it’s a very important 16
protection that witnesses have. 17
So do you understand? Do you have any questions? 18
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I do, thank you. 19
MR O’BRYAN: All right. Thank you. Now, one final thing I 20
have to cover because this investigation involves a 21
protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosure Act 22
I’m required to advice you of two matters. First, you 23
would be committing a criminal offence if you disclose 24
the content or information about the content of the 25
disclosure should that you be aware of it and you may not 26
– well, not be aware of it. Secondly, you would also be 27
committing a criminal offence if you disclose information 28
likely to lead to the identification of the person who 29
made the assessable disclosure. You may however disclose 30
the content or information about the content of the 1
protected disclosure should you be aware of that to a 2
lawyer for the purpose of obtaining legal advice. 3
I’m otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions 4
which would apply would allow such disclosure do not 5
apply in this case and I do not allow disclosure for any 6
other purpose. Do you follow? 7
MR GAMBLE: Thank you. 8
MR O’BRYAN: Well, the examination will commence and I 9
authorise Ms Harris - - - 10
MS HARRIS: Yes, Commissioner. 11
MR O’BRYAN: - - - to examine you. 12
MS HARRIS: Thank you, Commissioner. 13
MR O’BRYAN: Thank you, Ms Harris. 14
MS HARRIS: Are you Gavin Gamble? 15
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I am. 16
MS HARRIS: And do you attend here and answer to a summons 17
served on you? 18
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I do. 19
MS HARRIS: Do you have the rest of the documents? I’ll just 20
have those handed to you. 21
MR GAMBLE: Thank you. 22
MS HARRIS: Can you just confirm that that was summons SE1426? 23
MR GAMBLE: I assume. 24
MS HARRIS: If you turn over there should be a copy of the 25
summons there? 26
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Yes, “1426,” you said. Yes. 27
MS HARRIS: And with that summons did you also receive a 28
confidentiality - - - 29
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 30
MS HARRIS: - - - notice dated 13 March - - - 1
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 2
MS HARRIS: - - - 2015? And you’ve indicated to the 3
Commissioner already you received a notice titled section 4
121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations. 5
MR GAMBLE: That’s correct. 6
MS HARRIS: And did you also – with those documents receive a 7
covering letter dated 13 March 2015? 8
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I did. 9
MS HARRIS: I tender those, Commissioner. 10
MR O’BRYAN: Well, that bundle of documents will be marked 11
exhibit 127. 12
EXHIBIT #127 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS 13
MS HARRIS: Mr Gamble, you were the principal at Laburnum 14
Primary School for some time. Is that right? 15
MR GAMBLE: That’s correct. 16
MS HARRIS: From when until when? 17
MR GAMBLE: Technically I was an acting principal there when 18
the principal, the previous principal was ill, so I acted 19
there for two terms in 2001. 20
MS HARRIS: Yes. 21
MR GAMBLE: 2002 I went back to the school where I was already 22
the principal and reapplied and I was substantively 23
appointed from 2002 and I worked there until three years 24
ago I – retiring almost exactly three years ago. 25
MS HARRIS: So 2012. Is that - - - 26
MR GAMBLE: I beg your pardon? 27
MS HARRIS: Until 2012. Is that right? 28
MR GAMBLE: Until 2012, yes. 29
MS HARRIS: And how long were you a Department of Education 30
employee? 1
MR GAMBLE: Technically in my era it was from when I was at 2
Teachers College, so that was 1971 and I was a principal 3
for the last 22 or 23 years. 4
MS HARRIS: And whatever other schools were you principal of? 5
MR GAMBLE: Principal of, I was principal of Manningham 6
Primary School. I was principal of Ringwood Heights 7
Primary School. I was principal of Laburnum Primary 8
School and I was – I shared a principal role at Antonio 9
Park Primary School for six months, I went between the 10
two schools because the principal there had passed away. 11
MS HARRIS: And so of your time in the Department for how many 12
years were you a principal? 13
MR GAMBLE: 22 or 23, I – I actually worked in at Region for 14
two or three terms. I was a – in that era I think it was 15
called an SEO, Senior Education Officer. 16
MS HARRIS: Which region was that? 17
MR GAMBLE: But I was still – sorry. 18
MS HARRIS: Which region was that? 19
MR GAMBLE: Eastern region. I was still substantively 20
appointed to Laburnum at that time though so. 21
MS HARRIS: My questions really relate to the time – your time 22
at Laburnum Primary School. 23
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 24
MS HARRIS: What contact did you have during that time with 25
Nino Napoli? 26
MR GAMBLE: Basically none. I would have gone to a number of 27
briefings where Nino was the presenter, briefings on 28
financial management, the – the SRP, global budget and 29
all that sort of stuff, fairly big stuff. Apart from 30
that, no, my contact with Nino, I don’t recall any 1
contact. I had never – well, if I’ve met him I’ve met 2
him in some context like that maybe, would I have shaken 3
hands? I don’t know. 4
MS HARRIS: Like in a seminar context is that what I 5
understand you to mean? 6
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I – I – yes, I don’t know Nino, I know of 7
Nino Napoli, everybody knew of Nino Napoli, but I had 8
never met him to my knowledge and - - - 9
MS HARRIS: At - - - 10
MR GAMBLE: - - - if I had it was in passing. 11
MS HARRIS: At some point in time though he contacted you in 12
relation to depositing some funds into the Laburnum 13
Primary School account. Is that right? 14
MR GAMBLE: Yes, that’s correct. That’s - - - 15
MS HARRIS: When was that? 16
MR GAMBLE: Looking back now November – I think it was – it 17
was certainly 2009, but again I was unclear of that until 18
I was contacted by IBAC late last year it was a – a 19
contact that – I remember the contact, but I do know 20
quite a few details now, but the - - - 21
MS HARRIS: How did he contact you? 22
MR GAMBLE: He contacted me by telephone. 23
MS HARRIS: And what did he say to you? 24
MR GAMBLE: He asked me if I would be prepared and I can’t 25
remember the expression he used, I don’t think it was 26
banker school actually, but I think he asked if I would 27
be prepared to manage some funds on the Department’s 28
behalf. And I think, again, nine year – five years ago 29
he alluded to the fact that I did – Laburnum did do that 30
for other organisations, so it was within our experience. 1
MS HARRIS: So it wasn’t as a result of an application for a 2
grant, or anything along those lines - - - 3
MR GAMBLE: No. Absolutely not. It was for - - - 4
MS HARRIS: - - - or anything instigated by you or your 5
school? 6
MR GAMBLE: Absolutely not. It was very definitely, “Would 7
you be willing and able to manage some money in the short 8
term for” – I can’t recall whether he said for him, so I 9
doubt himself, but I don’t know, or the Department. I 10
took it to be the Department. 11
MS HARRIS: I see. At that time, was Laburnum a banker 12
school? 13
MR GAMBLE: Yes. That’s an interesting term. I’ve read that 14
a lot recently. 15
MS HARRIS: Or a program coordinator school? 16
MR GAMBLE: That expression didn’t exist at the time. 17
MS HARRIS: Sorry. Can I just stop you there. So back in 18
2009, that expression didn’t exist? 19
MR GAMBLE: I hadn’t heard that expression, program 20
coordinator, no. 21
MS HARRIS: But you had heard it - - - 22
MR O’BRYAN: What about banker school, had you heard of that? 23
MR GAMBLE: I had heard the term banker school, yes. And I 24
believe we were - - - 25
MS HARRIS: What was your understanding of what a banker 26
school did? 27
MR GAMBLE: My notion of the concept – and Laburnum was, the 28
terminology, a banker school for a number of smaller – of 29
groups, if you like. We managed the financial aspects of 30
a number of organisations – possibly six, thereabouts – 1
and my understanding of that was that we would be given – 2
or us to look after some money. Money would be credited 3
to Laburnum as the need arose. It wasn’t as though we 4
managed $2 million on behalf of a region. We would be – 5
there would be some – perhaps a conference. There was a 6
Whitehorse principals’ network conference, for example. 7
I think the cost of that conference was around the 8
$50,000 mark. Laburnum would be – would have that money 9
credited to our account. 10
MR O’BRYAN: By who? 11
MR GAMBLE: In that case, that would come – the money would 12
have come from eastern – I think it was a Whitehorse 13
network, so it probably came through Rob Williamson. He 14
was the RNL at the time; regional network leader. I 15
- - - 16
MR O’BRYAN: So is this Department money coming from 17
Department head office? 18
MR GAMBLE: This is Department money coming through, yes. 19
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 20
MR GAMBLE: From my knowledge, and I think this is interesting 21
in that whole banker school debate, is that that network 22
didn’t have its own administrative structure to pay 23
accounts, so they would get funded – region would get 24
funded, the network would get funded. The network didn’t 25
have an administrative structure, didn’t have a general 26
business manager, a bursar, any of those things. So the 27
way they operated – and I think this would have been 28
state-wide – would be to put the money into a school like 29
Laburnum and then we would be – invoices would be 30
delivered to the school and we would – and the money 1
would be identified separately; it would have its own 2
line item, its own budget. 3
MS HARRIS: Can I just stop you there and clarify. We’ve 4
already heard, in terms of the school bank accounts, that 5
they would essentially a cheque account where money would 6
come – that would be used to pay invoices that came into 7
the school - - - 8
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 9
MS HARRIS: - - - but there was also a high yield account. 10
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Usually money coming into the school went 11
into the high yield account and then, as schools need to 12
draw a cheque, that would be put in operating account and 13
then it would be drawn from there. So there would be 14
money transferred between the two. 15
MS HARRIS: And – I’m sorry. I interrupted you. 16
MR GAMBLE: No, no. I was also going to say the schools also 17
had investment accounts and that money sometimes would be 18
transferred across to an operating account to pay a bill 19
as well, but not in this instance. 20
MS HARRIS: So was an investment account separate to the high 21
yield account? 22
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 23
MS HARRIS: So when you received money from the Department to 24
hold for some kind of program or conference in a banker 25
school situation, where did that money get deposited? 26
MR GAMBLE: I’m not entirely sure that it was the same in 27
every instance and I think it would have – it may have 28
depended – my business manager did the mechanics of this. 29
If it was going to be passed on or paid very quickly, I 30
assume it would have been put in the operating account. 1
If it was a larger amount of money, it may have put in 2
high yield, but I don’t know. 3
MS HARRIS: And was it usually the case that if you were 4
acting – your school was acting as a banker school for a 5
particular program or a particular conference, that there 6
would be a deposit made and, quite soon afterwards, that 7
money would be drawn upon by invoices? 8
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Yes. We very – probably never sat on large 9
amounts of money for lengthy periods in time. There 10
would have been some interest come to the school, but 11
usually relatively small, because you might only have had 12
the money for a month or two at the most. 13
MS HARRIS: At the most. 14
MR GAMBLE: At the most, yes. 15
MS HARRIS: So what was your understanding then of what the 16
benefit was of being a banker school? 17
MR GAMBLE: In an era of self-managing schools, every little 18
bit of money helps, but the interest not really. Schools 19
didn’t pursue – well, certainly Laburnum never pursued 20
this. We were always approached from Whitehorse Network, 21
the BRAG Network, whoever we were looking after the money 22
– and, in this case Nino – the schools always approached. 23
We never put our hand up, or volunteered, or applied. In 24
many ways - - - 25
MS HARRIS: To be a banker school; is that what you’re 26
saying? 27
MR GAMBLE: To manage – to be a banker school or to manage 28
those funds on behalf of another organisation. We did it 29
– this sounds a bit trite almost, but it was a system 30
responsibility too. You know, Laburnum was a fairly 1
large school with an excellent business manager. We had 2
solid structures and we were in a position to be able to 3
do that. Yes, we did – would have got some small amount 4
of money in interest. There’s also a little bit of 5
kudos, to be honest, that it was flattering in a way to 6
be asked. You think that’s a sign that the school is 7
respected, and the school is functioning well and 8
administratively – and we were audited for all of my time 9
there and that money that we were managing on behalf of 10
other groups, or banking, that was also audited and we 11
were - - - 12
MS HARRIS: How often were you audited? 13
MR GAMBLE: Pardon? 14
MS HARRIS: How often were you audited? 15
MR GAMBLE: Initially, I think they – the Department changed 16
that. We were audited every year and then it became 17
every couple of years, but Laburnum would have been 18
audited, I would think, from two thousand – in ’8 or ’9 19
to 2012 at least three times, I would think, but that 20
would need to be checked, but there was a very regular 21
system of auditing schools. 22
MS HARRIS: And was there usually money left over from the 23
projects that you were being used as a banker school for? 24
MR GAMBLE: To my knowledge, no. 25
MS HARRIS: How would other schools using the program or 26
attending the conferences know that Laburnum was the 27
banker school for that particular project? 28
MR GAMBLE: For example, I will give you the Whitehorse 29
Network one. We looked after money for the Whitehorse 30
Principals’ Network. I think it might have been 1
Whitehorse/Maroondah. There would have been 25, 30 2
schools. And what I would do at the monthly meetings, I 3
would table the current balance, what the money had been 4
spent on and what cheques had been written, so I gave a 5
financial report. 6
MS HARRIS: When you say “monthly meetings”, who attended 7
those meetings? 8
MR GAMBLE: Every principal in the Whitehorse network. 9
MS HARRIS: Was there anything ever official sent out, a memo, 10
some kind of email, a letter from the Department saying, 11
“For this particular project, Laburnum will be the banker 12
school. Please direct your invoices to them.” 13
MR GAMBLE: Not to my knowledge, no. 14
MS HARRIS: That’s not something you had seen in your time as 15
principal? 16
MR GAMBLE: No. You’re meaning a letter from, for example, a 17
body - - - 18
MS HARRIS: From the Department or from your regional office? 19
MR GAMBLE: Saying that Laburnum is now the banker – no. Not 20
to my knowledge, no. It would often – for example, the 21
Whitehorse Network one, at the start of the year there 22
would be a meeting and because Laburnum had done it the 23
year before, there was – if anyone else wanted to have 24
the experience. And generally it just sort of rolled on, 25
if you like. 26
MS HARRIS: Yes. I see. So getting back to the contact from 27
Mr Napoli, it didn’t seem then, as I understand your 28
evidence, unusual for him to be making a request like 29
that of your school - - - 30
MR GAMBLE: No. 1
MS HARRIS: - - - because it had been a banker school in the 2
past. 3
MR GAMBLE: Because it was within our experience, yes. I must 4
admit, and this is – you know, to get a call from Nino 5
who is the number 1 or number 2 man in the - - - 6
MS HARRIS: What was his position then in 2009? 7
MR GAMBLE: I’m not sure what it was then. It was manager, 8
assistant manager, I think, financial resources and I 9
think that was it. 10
MS HARRIS: Right. And what did he say the money was going to 11
be used for? 12
MR GAMBLE: At the time, again, when I was asked at IBAC in 13
November, I struggled to remember that actually, but it 14
was to do with professional development and to do with 15
financial – professional development in the financial 16
management areas and I took it to be some of the funds 17
would be used in a cluster, which I interpreted to be 18
Whitehorse/Maroondah cluster, but that’s what I 19
interpreted it to be. 20
MS HARRIS: At that point in time, how many schools were 21
within your cluster? 22
MR GAMBLE: Again, 30, round figures. Clusters varied a 23
little bit according to restructures. I have been in 24
that group when it was as high as 40, 45 schools. I 25
think around – don’t think it was that high then, but, 26
yes, that’s a reasonable approximation. 27
MS HARRIS: And was it usually the case that if you were 28
holding money as a banker school for a particular program 29
or project that your school was also involved in that 30
