MS HARRIS: Mr Gamble, you were the principal at Laburnum 14
Primary School for some time. Is that right? 15
MR GAMBLE: That’s correct. 16
MS HARRIS: From when until when? 17
MR GAMBLE: Technically I was an acting principal there when 18
the principal, the previous principal was ill, so I acted 19
there for two terms in 2001. 20
MS HARRIS: Yes. 21
MR GAMBLE: 2002 I went back to the school where I was already 22
the principal and reapplied and I was substantively 23
appointed from 2002 and I worked there until three years 24
ago I – retiring almost exactly three years ago. 25
MS HARRIS: So 2012. Is that - - - 26
MR GAMBLE: I beg your pardon? 27
MS HARRIS: Until 2012. Is that right? 28
MR GAMBLE: Until 2012, yes. 29
MS HARRIS: And how long were you a Department of Education 30
employee? 1
MR GAMBLE: Technically in my era it was from when I was at 2
Teachers College, so that was 1971 and I was a principal 3
for the last 22 or 23 years. 4
MS HARRIS: And whatever other schools were you principal of? 5
MR GAMBLE: Principal of, I was principal of Manningham 6
Primary School. I was principal of Ringwood Heights 7
Primary School. I was principal of Laburnum Primary 8
School and I was – I shared a principal role at Antonio 9
Park Primary School for six months, I went between the 10
two schools because the principal there had passed away. 11
MS HARRIS: And so of your time in the Department for how many 12
years were you a principal? 13
MR GAMBLE: 22 or 23, I – I actually worked in at Region for 14
two or three terms. I was a – in that era I think it was 15
called an SEO, Senior Education Officer. 16
MS HARRIS: Which region was that? 17
MR GAMBLE: But I was still – sorry. 18
MS HARRIS: Which region was that? 19
MR GAMBLE: Eastern region. I was still substantively 20
appointed to Laburnum at that time though so. 21
MS HARRIS: My questions really relate to the time – your time 22
at Laburnum Primary School. 23
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 24
MS HARRIS: What contact did you have during that time with 25
Nino Napoli? 26
MR GAMBLE: Basically none. I would have gone to a number of 27
briefings where Nino was the presenter, briefings on 28
financial management, the – the SRP, global budget and 29
all that sort of stuff, fairly big stuff. Apart from 30
that, no, my contact with Nino, I don’t recall any 1
contact. I had never – well, if I’ve met him I’ve met 2
him in some context like that maybe, would I have shaken 3
hands? I don’t know. 4
MS HARRIS: Like in a seminar context is that what I 5
understand you to mean? 6
MR GAMBLE: Yes, I – I – yes, I don’t know Nino, I know of 7
Nino Napoli, everybody knew of Nino Napoli, but I had 8
never met him to my knowledge and - - - 9
MS HARRIS: At - - - 10
MR GAMBLE: - - - if I had it was in passing. 11
MS HARRIS: At some point in time though he contacted you in 12
relation to depositing some funds into the Laburnum 13
Primary School account. Is that right? 14
MR GAMBLE: Yes, that’s correct. That’s - - - 15
MS HARRIS: When was that? 16
MR GAMBLE: Looking back now November – I think it was – it 17
was certainly 2009, but again I was unclear of that until 18
I was contacted by IBAC late last year it was a – a 19
contact that – I remember the contact, but I do know 20
quite a few details now, but the - - - 21
MS HARRIS: How did he contact you? 22
MR GAMBLE: He contacted me by telephone. 23
MS HARRIS: And what did he say to you? 24
MR GAMBLE: He asked me if I would be prepared and I can’t 25
remember the expression he used, I don’t think it was 26
banker school actually, but I think he asked if I would 27
be prepared to manage some funds on the Department’s 28
behalf. And I think, again, nine year – five years ago 29
he alluded to the fact that I did – Laburnum did do that 30
for other organisations, so it was within our experience. 1
MS HARRIS: So it wasn’t as a result of an application for a 2
grant, or anything along those lines - - - 3
MR GAMBLE: No. Absolutely not. It was for - - - 4
MS HARRIS: - - - or anything instigated by you or your 5
school? 6
MR GAMBLE: Absolutely not. It was very definitely, “Would 7
you be willing and able to manage some money in the short 8
term for” – I can’t recall whether he said for him, so I 9
doubt himself, but I don’t know, or the Department. I 10
took it to be the Department. 11
MS HARRIS: I see. At that time, was Laburnum a banker 12
school? 13
MR GAMBLE: Yes. That’s an interesting term. I’ve read that 14
a lot recently. 15
MS HARRIS: Or a program coordinator school? 16
MR GAMBLE: That expression didn’t exist at the time. 17
MS HARRIS: Sorry. Can I just stop you there. So back in 18
2009, that expression didn’t exist? 19
MR GAMBLE: I hadn’t heard that expression, program 20
coordinator, no. 21
MS HARRIS: But you had heard it - - - 22
MR O’BRYAN: What about banker school, had you heard of that? 23
MR GAMBLE: I had heard the term banker school, yes. And I 24
believe we were - - - 25
MS HARRIS: What was your understanding of what a banker 26
school did? 27
MR GAMBLE: My notion of the concept – and Laburnum was, the 28
terminology, a banker school for a number of smaller – of 29
groups, if you like. We managed the financial aspects of 30
a number of organisations – possibly six, thereabouts – 1
and my understanding of that was that we would be given – 2
or us to look after some money. Money would be credited 3
to Laburnum as the need arose. It wasn’t as though we 4
managed $2 million on behalf of a region. We would be – 5
there would be some – perhaps a conference. There was a 6
Whitehorse principals’ network conference, for example. 7
I think the cost of that conference was around the 8
$50,000 mark. Laburnum would be – would have that money 9
credited to our account. 10
MR O’BRYAN: By who? 11
MR GAMBLE: In that case, that would come – the money would 12
have come from eastern – I think it was a Whitehorse 13
network, so it probably came through Rob Williamson. He 14
was the RNL at the time; regional network leader. I 15
- - - 16
MR O’BRYAN: So is this Department money coming from 17
Department head office? 18
MR GAMBLE: This is Department money coming through, yes. 19
MR O’BRYAN: Yes. 20
MR GAMBLE: From my knowledge, and I think this is interesting 21
in that whole banker school debate, is that that network 22
didn’t have its own administrative structure to pay 23
accounts, so they would get funded – region would get 24
funded, the network would get funded. The network didn’t 25
have an administrative structure, didn’t have a general 26
business manager, a bursar, any of those things. So the 27
way they operated – and I think this would have been 28
state-wide – would be to put the money into a school like 29
Laburnum and then we would be – invoices would be 30
delivered to the school and we would – and the money 1
would be identified separately; it would have its own 2
line item, its own budget. 3
MS HARRIS: Can I just stop you there and clarify. We’ve 4
already heard, in terms of the school bank accounts, that 5
they would essentially a cheque account where money would 6
come – that would be used to pay invoices that came into 7
the school - - - 8
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 9
MS HARRIS: - - - but there was also a high yield account. 10
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Usually money coming into the school went 11
into the high yield account and then, as schools need to 12
draw a cheque, that would be put in operating account and 13
then it would be drawn from there. So there would be 14
money transferred between the two. 15
MS HARRIS: And – I’m sorry. I interrupted you. 16
MR GAMBLE: No, no. I was also going to say the schools also 17
had investment accounts and that money sometimes would be 18
transferred across to an operating account to pay a bill 19
as well, but not in this instance. 20
MS HARRIS: So was an investment account separate to the high 21
yield account? 22
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 23
MS HARRIS: So when you received money from the Department to 24
hold for some kind of program or conference in a banker 25
school situation, where did that money get deposited? 26
MR GAMBLE: I’m not entirely sure that it was the same in 27
every instance and I think it would have – it may have 28
depended – my business manager did the mechanics of this. 29
If it was going to be passed on or paid very quickly, I 30
assume it would have been put in the operating account. 1
If it was a larger amount of money, it may have put in 2
high yield, but I don’t know. 3
MS HARRIS: And was it usually the case that if you were 4
acting – your school was acting as a banker school for a 5
particular program or a particular conference, that there 6
would be a deposit made and, quite soon afterwards, that 7
money would be drawn upon by invoices? 8
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Yes. We very – probably never sat on large 9
amounts of money for lengthy periods in time. There 10
would have been some interest come to the school, but 11
usually relatively small, because you might only have had 12
the money for a month or two at the most. 13
MS HARRIS: At the most. 14
MR GAMBLE: At the most, yes. 15
MS HARRIS: So what was your understanding then of what the 16
benefit was of being a banker school? 17
MR GAMBLE: In an era of self-managing schools, every little 18
bit of money helps, but the interest not really. Schools 19
didn’t pursue – well, certainly Laburnum never pursued 20
this. We were always approached from Whitehorse Network, 21
the BRAG Network, whoever we were looking after the money 22
– and, in this case Nino – the schools always approached. 23
We never put our hand up, or volunteered, or applied. In 24
many ways - - - 25
MS HARRIS: To be a banker school; is that what you’re 26
saying? 27
MR GAMBLE: To manage – to be a banker school or to manage 28
those funds on behalf of another organisation. We did it 29
– this sounds a bit trite almost, but it was a system 30
responsibility too. You know, Laburnum was a fairly 1
large school with an excellent business manager. We had 2
solid structures and we were in a position to be able to 3
do that. Yes, we did – would have got some small amount 4
of money in interest. There’s also a little bit of 5
kudos, to be honest, that it was flattering in a way to 6
be asked. You think that’s a sign that the school is 7
respected, and the school is functioning well and 8
administratively – and we were audited for all of my time 9
there and that money that we were managing on behalf of 10
other groups, or banking, that was also audited and we 11
were - - - 12
MS HARRIS: How often were you audited? 13
MR GAMBLE: Pardon? 14
MS HARRIS: How often were you audited? 15
MR GAMBLE: Initially, I think they – the Department changed 16
that. We were audited every year and then it became 17
every couple of years, but Laburnum would have been 18
audited, I would think, from two thousand – in ’8 or ’9 19
to 2012 at least three times, I would think, but that 20
would need to be checked, but there was a very regular 21
system of auditing schools. 22
MS HARRIS: And was there usually money left over from the 23
projects that you were being used as a banker school for? 24
MR GAMBLE: To my knowledge, no. 25
MS HARRIS: How would other schools using the program or 26
attending the conferences know that Laburnum was the 27
banker school for that particular project? 28
MR GAMBLE: For example, I will give you the Whitehorse 29
Network one. We looked after money for the Whitehorse 30
Principals’ Network. I think it might have been 1
Whitehorse/Maroondah. There would have been 25, 30 2
schools. And what I would do at the monthly meetings, I 3
would table the current balance, what the money had been 4
spent on and what cheques had been written, so I gave a 5
financial report. 6
MS HARRIS: When you say “monthly meetings”, who attended 7
those meetings? 8
MR GAMBLE: Every principal in the Whitehorse network. 9
MS HARRIS: Was there anything ever official sent out, a memo, 10
some kind of email, a letter from the Department saying, 11
“For this particular project, Laburnum will be the banker 12
school. Please direct your invoices to them.” 13
MR GAMBLE: Not to my knowledge, no. 14
MS HARRIS: That’s not something you had seen in your time as 15
principal? 16
MR GAMBLE: No. You’re meaning a letter from, for example, a 17
body - - - 18
MS HARRIS: From the Department or from your regional office? 19
MR GAMBLE: Saying that Laburnum is now the banker – no. Not 20
to my knowledge, no. It would often – for example, the 21
Whitehorse Network one, at the start of the year there 22
would be a meeting and because Laburnum had done it the 23
year before, there was – if anyone else wanted to have 24
the experience. And generally it just sort of rolled on, 25
if you like. 26
MS HARRIS: Yes. I see. So getting back to the contact from 27
Mr Napoli, it didn’t seem then, as I understand your 28
evidence, unusual for him to be making a request like 29
that of your school - - - 30
MR GAMBLE: No. 1
MS HARRIS: - - - because it had been a banker school in the 2
past. 3
MR GAMBLE: Because it was within our experience, yes. I must 4
admit, and this is – you know, to get a call from Nino 5
who is the number 1 or number 2 man in the - - - 6
MS HARRIS: What was his position then in 2009? 7
MR GAMBLE: I’m not sure what it was then. It was manager, 8
assistant manager, I think, financial resources and I 9
think that was it. 10
MS HARRIS: Right. And what did he say the money was going to 11
be used for? 12
MR GAMBLE: At the time, again, when I was asked at IBAC in 13
November, I struggled to remember that actually, but it 14
was to do with professional development and to do with 15
financial – professional development in the financial 16
management areas and I took it to be some of the funds 17
would be used in a cluster, which I interpreted to be 18
Whitehorse/Maroondah cluster, but that’s what I 19
interpreted it to be. 20
MS HARRIS: At that point in time, how many schools were 21
within your cluster? 22
MR GAMBLE: Again, 30, round figures. Clusters varied a 23
little bit according to restructures. I have been in 24
that group when it was as high as 40, 45 schools. I 25
think around – don’t think it was that high then, but, 26
yes, that’s a reasonable approximation. 27
MS HARRIS: And was it usually the case that if you were 28
holding money as a banker school for a particular program 29
or project that your school was also involved in that 30
program or project in some way? 1
MR GAMBLE: Usually. I’m just trying to think of all the 2
examples. 3
MS HARRIS: So in this case - - - 4
MR GAMBLE: Generally, yes, I think so. 5
MS HARRIS: And in this case, when Mr Napoli was asking you to 6
hold some funds, did you think you were to be involved in 7
this particular program? 8
MR GAMBLE: I’m not sure I gave that a lot of thought, to be 9
honest, looking - - - 10
MS HARRIS: Did he communicate anything along those lines to 11
you? 12
MR GAMBLE: No, no, he didn’t. I’ve read the definition since 13
that came when the money was electronically deposited and 14
it talks about – you would have that – talks about 15
professional development cluster. Reading it now, it’s 16
ambiguous, I suppose. At the time, no. I looked at it 17
and I thought, again, based on the consistency and based 18
on what was a relatively small amount of money too, I 19
didn’t think any more about that. 20
MS HARRIS: I will bring that document up now for you that you 21
just referred to. 22
MR GAMBLE: Yes. 23
MS HARRIS: It’s court book 11, page 15, please. It will be 24
on the screen in a moment. 25
MR GAMBLE: I’ve just got to work out which pair of glasses to 26
wear. 27
MS HARRIS: That’s all right. 28
MR GAMBLE: Yes. Actually I think – I don’t think IBAC – 29
well, IBAC probably have always had all of this stuff. 30
But I think when I went back to my bursar last October, 1
November, she found this documentation filed under the 2
school so - - - 3
MS HARRIS: So that’s an email from Betty Simms on behalf of 4
Mr Napoli. 5
MR GAMBLE: On behalf of Nino, yes. 6
MS HARRIS: To you on 20 August 2009. The subject is Grant 7
Payments, and it refers to: 8
Further to our discussion, you will shortly receive a 9
grant for $15,000. 10
MR GAMBLE: That’s correct. 11
MS HARRIS: Continuing: 12
It’s associated with the cluster professional development 13
of financial management in the schools. I would like to 14
thank you for being a part of this program. 15
First of all, it wasn’t actually a grant going to your 16
school, was it? 17
MR GAMBLE: No. No, that’s a – his terminology not mine, 18
obviously, but - - - 19
MS HARRIS: Would you agree with me that the wording “grant” 20
would suggest that there has been some kind of 21
application or request by the school for funds? 22
MR GAMBLE: Possibly, yes. 23
MS HARRIS: And that’s obviously - - - 24
MR GAMBLE: At the time, no, it didn’t register with – at me 25
at all. 26
MS HARRIS: No, no, I’m asking now when you look at it. 27
MR GAMBLE: Reading – reading now, a grant – schools usually 28
don’t get money without applying for it. No, there – 29
there would be some instances I would think of – the 30
Department may grant, but usually you have to apply for 1
it, yes. 2
MS HARRIS: And, obviously, that’s not what happened in this 3
case. 4
MR GAMBLE: No, absolutely not. 5
MS HARRIS: Certainly though, from an outsider or from an 6
auditor’s point of view, if they were to see that they 7
would – it would be fair to assume that the grant came to 8
the school as a result of a request or an application. 9
Would you agree with that? 10
MR GAMBLE: Well, it wasn’t the way I read it, but if you were 11
looking at it externally and you’re looking at the exact 12
wording, possibly, yes. 13
MS HARRIS: Yes. What was, to the best of your knowledge, the 14
cluster professional development of financial management 15
program? 16
MR GAMBLE: I have no idea what that was. At the – at the 17
time, I would assume, given Nino’s position and given the 18
nature of the grant, I assumed it was to do with – well, 19
financial management, there was lots of professional 20
development for principals in the area of financial 21
management cluster. Clusters or – networks were 22
previously called clusters. Professional development 23
speaks for itself. So I just assumed it would be money 24
used for – and that still reads that way to me as well. 25
So the professional development area of financial 26
management, cluster being - - - 27
MS HARRIS: Within your cluster. 28
MR GAMBLE: I interpreted it as, now looking at it, very 29
definitely my cluster. But at the time I probably didn’t 30
look at it in that depth again because it had come out 1
from Nino. Given that that was very much part of his 2
role, it made sense to me. 3
MS HARRIS: And where it says “I would like to thank you for 4
being part of this program”, was it your understanding at 5
the time that were a part of a program?