MR WOODWARD: Mr Lane, you’re currently, I believe, the CEO – 20
is that the title – of - - - 21
MR LANE: Managing director. 22
MR WOODWARD: Managing director of an organisation now called 23
– I will ask you – it’s SGV is the acronym. 24
MR LANE: It’s SGA, School Governance Australia. 25
MR WOODWARD: School Governance Australia. Thank you. And 26
that was – was that a body that was formerly known as 27
ASCIV? 28
MR LANE: No, it’s not. 29
MR WOODWARD: Okay. So it has been a change - - - 30
MR LANE: The ASCIV organisation was wound up - - - 1
MR WOODWARD: I see. 2
MR LANE: - - - and a new body commenced. 3
MR WOODWARD: I see. Okay. So just for our information, 4
ASCIV, again an acronym, what was – what did that stand 5
for? 6
MR LANE: The Association of School Councils in Victoria. 7
MR WOODWARD: Right. And do we take it from the change of 8
name that the current organisation is now an Australia- 9
wide organisation? 10
MR LANE: Yes, it is. 11
MR WOODWARD: Okay. When did that change take place? 12
MR LANE: 1 April 2014. 13
MR WOODWARD: Right. Now, before you – you were also with its 14
predecessor, ASCIV? 15
MR LANE: I was, yes. 16
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And how long have you been – and, sorry, 17
what was the formal title you had in ASCIV? 18
MR LANE: I was the CEO. 19
MR WOODWARD: The CEO. And how long had you held that 20
position? 21
MR LANE: About 13 months. From February 2013 to – 12 months 22
– to February 2014 when ASCIV was wound up. 23
MR WOODWARD: Right. Now, perhaps not your immediate 24
predecessor, but a predecessor of yours in that role at 25
ASCIV was Mr Franzi-Ford? 26
MR LANE: That’s correct. 27
MR WOODWARD: And he died in – was it 2012? 28
MR LANE: July 2012. 29
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And was – what happened in the period 30
between his death and your appointment? 1
MR LANE: The organisation effectively didn’t operate. 2
MR WOODWARD: Right. 3
MR LANE: Stephen did every – there was – it’s – there was 4
Bill who was the president and Steve, the CEO, and Steve 5
pretty much did everything and then he passed away. The 6
knowledge and everything else pretty much passed with 7
him. 8
MR WOODWARD: Right. 9
MR LANE: And I was approached in September by Bill who – Bill 10
Gordon who is the - - - 11
MR WOODWARD: The president? 12
MR LANE: - - - president to see – to gauge my interest in 13
taking over the organisation, but, at that time, I was in 14
other employment - - - 15
MR WOODWARD: Right. 16
MR LANE: - - - and I indicated that I was interested, but 17
wouldn’t be able to do so until January 2014. 18
MR WOODWARD: Two thousand and? 19 MR LANE: Fourteen. 20 MR WOODWARD: Fourteen. 21 MR LANE: Sorry, 13. 22
MR WOODWARD: Yes. I was going to say 13. Yes. 23
MR LANE: Sorry, sorry. Yes. 24
MR WOODWARD: Now – well, could we just briefly go back 25
through your employment. Where were you working when you 26
were approached to take on that role? 27
MR LANE: I was with the Department of Education. 28
MR WOODWARD: In what role? 29
MR LANE: Principal at Hawthorn West Primary School. 30
MR WOODWARD: I see. How long were you the principal of 1
Hawthorn West Primary? 2
MR LANE: It was an interesting appointment. On and off for 3
18 months. 4
MR WOODWARD: Right. Okay. Was it a – when you – why was it 5
on and off? 6
MR LANE: The principal was on sick leave and I was replacing 7
him for the periods he was on sick leave, but I was also 8
at the school when he returned – on periods when he 9
returned to work as an advisor - - - 10
MR WOODWARD: I see. 11
MR LANE: - - - to the principal. So it was a sort of an odd 12
arrangement. Can’t describe it any more than that. 13
MR WOODWARD: No. I understand. And prior to your time at 14
Hawthorn West Primary, where were you? 15
MR LANE: I left the Education Department in two thousand and 16
– August 2010. Prior to that, I had been employed by the 17
Education Department as a principal. 18
MR WOODWARD: So there was a period between you leaving the 19
Education Department and starting at Hawthorn West? 20
MR LANE: Yes. I – and I run an educational consultancy and I 21
was running that business during that time - - - 22
MR WOODWARD: All right. 23
MR LANE: - - - and do – currently, as well, the job with 24
School Governance Australia only employs me two days a 25
week. 26
MR WOODWARD: I see. And before 2010, what was your role at 27
the Department? 28
MR LANE: I was principal at Balwyn North Primary School. 29
MR WOODWARD: Balwyn North Primary. And how long had you held 30
that role? 1
MR LANE: 17 years. 2
MR WOODWARD: And before that? 3
MR LANE: Essendon Primary School. I was there for 18 months 4
and prior to that, Coolaroo Primary School, and I was 5
there for five years and I was a teacher prior to that. 6
They were all principal roles. 7
MR WOODWARD: While you were at Coolaroo Primary School, Mr 8
Michael Giulieri was on staff? 9
MR LANE: He was the assistant principal for three years of 10
the five I was there. 11
MR WOODWARD: And you came to know him during that time? 12
MR LANE: I had met him prior to that, but, yes, but got to 13
know him - - - 14
MR WOODWARD: Well, yes. 15
MR LANE: - - - much better over that period. 16
MR WOODWARD: So just revisiting that briefly, your time as a 17
principal, apart from the Balwyn North stint – series of 18
stints – you ceased in 2010 effectively. 19
MR LANE: Yes. 20
MR WOODWARD: And during that period when you were a 21
principal, including at Hawthorn, Mr Lane, what – are you 22
familiar with the term banker school? 23
MR LANE: Yes. It’s normally called program coordinator 24
school, but I understand that it’s being referred to as 25
banker schools here. 26
MR WOODWARD: Well, perhaps let’s explore that. When you say 27
“normally called”, it does – the term banker school 28
certainly seems to be the, if you like, term by which 29
it’s commonly known. Is that a fair statement? 30
MR LANE: Yes, it is. 1
MR WOODWARD: Yes. Perhaps its more formal title might be 2
program coordinator schools. 3
MR LANE: Program coordinator, yes. 4
MR WOODWARD: And do you – at least in your mind, are those 5
terms synonymous? 6
MR LANE: Given what I’ve read in the papers in recent times, 7
I would say no. 8
MR WOODWARD: Okay. Can we go back to the time when you first 9
learnt of the existence of this name. Did you believe at 10
the time that they were effectively synonymous? 11
MR LANE: No. I would have said that the schools referring to 12
themselves as banker schools were holding funds for other 13
– for the purposes of clusters of schools, or for 14
ancillary SSSO staff, for travel, buying of psychology 15
tests, those sorts of things, was the main reason for 16
having them. 17
MR WOODWARD: So that, at least in your mind, banker schools 18
back in that period, 2010 and earlier, were schools 19
holding funds for local programs, in effect? 20
MR LANE: Yes. 21
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And at least in your mind, at the time, 22
was a program coordinator school the same – doing the 23
same thing? 24
MR LANE: The same, yes. 25
MR WOODWARD: Yes. So at least, at that time, the terms were 26
synonymous. 27
MR LANE: Yes. 28
MR WOODWARD: I follow. Again, were you aware of schools that 29
either did or didn’t call themselves banker schools also, 30
from time to time, holding funds that were used for 1
purposes that were unrelated to the school or the region 2
in which the school operated? 3
MR LANE: Yes. I was aware of some of them. 4
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And to your knowledge, was your school 5
ever in that position – any of your schools? 6
MR LANE: No, no. 7
MR WOODWARD: To your knowledge, how did that system – well, 8
how was that supposed to work? 9
MR LANE: Look, I don’t know that much about it. My 10
understanding was that it was usually something like a 11
regional general manager, or one of the senior 12
bureaucrats in town would say to a principal, “Can you 13
hold some money for me for, you know, gifts and things 14
like that”, because it’s easier to do it through a school 15
than it is to do it out of the central office. 16
MR WOODWARD: I see. And was that something – just to be 17
clear, was that a practice that you were aware of in the 18
period 2010 and earlier? 19
MR LANE: Yes, yes. 20
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And was it the case then that, from time 21
to time, you heard people talk about a particular banker 22
school being that office’s banker school? In other 23
words, to take an example, if - - - 24
MR LANE: Yes, yes. I was aware of a couple of those, yes. 25
MR WOODWARD: Yes. Can we move forward some way and can I ask 26
you, Mr Lane, how long have you known about the IBAC 27
investigation, do you think? 28
MR LANE: My first knowledge of it was when the Ultranet IBAC 29
inquiry, which was March last year, I think - - - 30
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 1
MR LANE: That’s when I sort of became aware of it. 2
MR WOODWARD: You became aware then that IBAC had an interest 3
in matters relevant to the Education Department, to put 4
it broadly? 5
MR LANE: Yes. Once it was in the papers. I didn’t – hadn’t 6
heard of it prior to it being in the papers. 7
MR WOODWARD: Okay. And since that time, it would be fair to 8
say you’ve had numerous discussions with a number of 9
people about the investigation? 10
MR LANE: Yes. That would be fair. 11
MR WOODWARD: Yes. Can I go through some of those people who 12
you may have spoken with over that period. Mr Rosewarne, 13
have you had any conversations with him? 14
MR LANE: No. No contact with Jeff Rosewarne. 15
MR WOODWARD: Do you know Mr Rosewarne? 16
MR LANE: I do. 17
MR WOODWARD: Yes. So is he someone you would have had 18
contact with from to time in previous years? 19
MR LANE: Yes. I’ve known Jeff on and off for about 30 years. 20
MR WOODWARD: Okay. And what – how would you describe your 21
relationship with him over that period? 22
MR LANE: Friendly, but not friends. 23
MR WOODWARD: Not friends. Did you socialise with him? 24
MR LANE: Occasionally he would be at a dinner that I would be 25
at or something like that and we would talk, but that’s – 26
you know, effectively, most of my relationship with him 27
was either – when I was deputy president of the 28
Principal’s Association, I had a weekly with him about 29
departmental matters that affected principals and I would 30
occasionally have a coffee. 1
MR WOODWARD: And you say you’ve had no contact with him at 2
all either over the phone or in person in relation to the 3
IBAC investigation? 4
MR LANE: No. I haven’t spoken to Jeff since he left the 5
Education Department. 6
MR WOODWARD: Right. Can we move to Mr John Allman. You’ve 7
spoken to him? 8
MR LANE: Yes. I know John very well. 9
MR WOODWARD: And you’ve had, what, a number of conversations 10
with him concerning the IBAC investigation? 11
MR LANE: Two or three, the last one being in about October 12
when there was a lot of news in the paper and I rang him 13
to check on his welfare basically to see how he was 14
doing. 15
MR WOODWARD: When do you think was the first conversation you 16
had with Mr Allman about - - - 17
MR LANE: June or July, I would think, last year where John – 18
I would regularly catch up with John for a dinner a 19
couple of times a year and I know we caught up June or 20
July. I couldn’t tell you the date at this stage, but – 21
and we did discuss it at that point. 22
MR WOODWARD: And what sort of thing do you recall discussing 23
with Mr Allman? 24
MR LANE: Nothing in depth, it was just about what was going 25
on. Did he know anything? 26
MR WOODWARD: What did he tell you? 27
MR LANE: He said, “No, I don’t know much at all.” 28
MR WOODWARD: Did he talk to you at all about his own 29
potential involvement in the - - - 30
MR LANE: No, he did not. 1 MR WOODWARD: He didn’t. 2 MR LANE: No. 3
MR WOODWARD: What about on any of the later conversations 4
with him did - - - 5
MR LANE: The one in October we did - - - 6
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And - - - 7
MR LANE: - - - because it was pretty clear that – that the – 8
the papers were talking about John. And I – and as I 9
said I rang him to ask how he was doing. 10
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 11
MR LANE: And – and he basically said he was doing okay and if 12
there was going to be after a lot of people not just him. 13
He didn’t think it was a problem. 14
MR WOODWARD: Did he talk to you in any more detail on that 15
about what he thought his problem might be? 16
MR LANE: No. 17
MR WOODWARD: Did he mention any schools? 18
MR LANE: No. 19
MR WOODWARD: Now, Mr Napoli is someone you’ve had a number of 20
conversations with. 21
MR LANE: Yes, he is. 22
MR WOODWARD: Yes. When did you first speak to Mr Napoli or 23
perhaps I should first put in in context. How long have 24
you known Mr Napoli? 25
MR LANE: The best part of 30 years, yes. 26
MR WOODWARD: And is he someone you would describe as a 27
friend? 28
MR LANE: Friend, friendly, yes, I’ve visited his house, we’ve 29
had dinner together and those sort of things. I’ve known 30
and I’ve worked on a number of Department projects with 1
him over the – over that period of time. 2
MR WOODWARD: Have you met members of his family over that 3
period? 4
MR LANE: Yes, I have just recently. 5
MR WOODWARD: How recently? 6
MR LANE: Post – post his – he had an operation for quadruple 7
bypass and I visited him at his house several times after 8
that. 9
MR WOODWARD: And so you met his sons Matthew and Ralph, do 10
you think in that - - - 11
MR LANE: Yes, I’ve met Ralph a couple of times and Matthew I 12
think once and - - - 13
MR WOODWARD: And his wife, Josephine? 14
MR LANE: Yes, a couple of times 15
MR WOODWARD: And you’ve had numerous telephone conversations 16
with Mr Napoli. 17
MR LANE: Yes. 18
MR WOODWARD: And in the course of those conversation was the 19
IBAC investigation a pretty common topic? 20
MR LANE: A lot of the time, yes. 21
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And what sort of thing were – was Mr 22
Napoli telling you about what he understood the 23
investigation to be about and any role he may have had in 24
it? 25
MR LANE: In most of those conversations he was telling me he 26
had no role in that and that he would – he – he had done 27
nothing wrong. And, “Don’t worry, my name’s on 28
everything because I’m the finance director.” 29
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 30
MR LANE: You know, Jeff or Darrell or someone else had signed 1
off on everything, he was – these were the things, he was 2
reassuring me that there was no problem - - - 3
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 4
MR LANE: - - - most of that time. 5
MR WOODWARD: Did the – that sort of approach or at least the 6
way in which he was describing or he was talking about 7
his own role, did that change over time during the course 8
of last year? 9
MR LANE: Yes, it did. November 27 or 28, I don’t remember 10
the date, but around about then, the – it was a Thursday, 11
I probably should have looked up the date, he rang me 12
quite agitated and said he needed to see me. I was 13
engaged in a whole range of meetings that day which I 14
shifted around and I eventually arrived at his house at 15
about 5 o’clock. 16
And he started then to tell me that he’d been very 17
silly, he’d done some things that were quite wrong. And 18
I – at that stage I said, “You shouldn’t be telling me 19
those things.” I was aware that he was going to be 20
appearing before IBAC I think on the 10 or 12 of 21
December. And – and I – and I said, “Well, look, you 22
know,” tried to reassure him in terms of the – I’ve got a 23
different view of it now perhaps, but that – that 24
wouldn’t affect our friendship as such, he’d done the 25
wrong thing and he needed to own up and be part of it. 26
MR WOODWARD: I want to come back to particularly the 27
conversations you had with Mr Napoli in more recent – 28
towards the end of last year, but just to finish off the 29
list of individuals. Mr Fraser, have you discussed the 30
IBAC investigation with him? 1
MR LANE: No, I haven’t seen Darrell for two years. 2
MR WOODWARD: He is again someone you’ve known for some time? 3
MR LANE: Yes, about ten years, not - - - 4
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 5
MR LANE: - - - not a huge amount of time. 6
MR WOODWARD: Again, well, how would you describe the nature 7
of your relationship with him? 8
MR LANE: Probably a professional relationship. I worked for 9
him for a period of time and we shared some common 10
interests in education. 11
MR WOODWARD: Mr Giulieri is someone you’ve spoken to about 12
the investigation - - - 13
MR LANE: Yes. 14
MR WOODWARD: - - - on a few occasions. 15
MR LANE: Yes. 16
MR WOODWARD: What other teachers or principals or former 17
principals have you spoken to about the investigation? 18
MR LANE: Briefly with Tony Hilton, that would have been the 19
middle of last year I guess. 20
MR WOODWARD: And what did Mr Hilton tell you about it? 21
MR LANE: He didn’t tell me anything, we just – it was just a 22
very general discussion of - - - 23
MR WOODWARD: Topic of conversation. 24
MR LANE: - - - “Have you heard?” basically and – and the 25
answer was, “Yes, I’d heard, but didn’t know anything 26
about it,” and he didn’t offer any more on that at that 27
stage. 28
MR WOODWARD: And you were, I understand, in a sense sort of 29
keeping a track of what was happening with the 30
investigation. For instance, you had a pretty good idea 1
of what schools were being visited by investigators? 2
MR LANE: People were telling me, yes. 3
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And was that because you were yourself 4
actively going out to find out or people just 5
volunteering that information? 6
MR LANE: No, people were just telling me. 7
MR WOODWARD: Yes. And because you have a – in your role in 8
particular, but more generally have a fairly good network 9
in the Education Department? 10
MR LANE: Yes, I do. Yes. 11
MR WOODWARD: Just returning to your discussions with Mr 12
Napoli, you said the conversation where things got a 13
little bit – well, he seemed agitated to you was in late 14
November. You had had other conversations with him 15
leading up to that time? 16
MR LANE: Two or three - - - 17
MR WOODWARD: Yes. 18
MR LANE: - - - over – over the preceding six months. 19
MR WOODWARD: Yes. Only two or three? 20
MR LANE: That I can recall, there may have been more, but I 21
mean, we talked – we had lots of conversations, but – but 22
there are only a couple that I can recall that were 23
actually about IBAC. 24
MR WOODWARD: And you do say you recall a significant shift in 25
his – the sort of approach to the conversation by the end